The Core Map Dilemma...

Discussion in 'Halo and Forge Discussion' started by FRED lllll, Sep 17, 2017.

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What do you think?

  1. More maps should have gimmicks!

  2. I think maps are fine as is, gimmicks don't hurt or add.

  3. I hate experimental core maps!

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  1. FRED lllll

    FRED lllll ONI Agent

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    Now, this may be controversial as there are a lot of Forgers out there that make maps, so if you get offended easily, please read no further. You have been warned.

    Now for those who decided to read further hear me out. I feel there is an issue with a lot of core maps out there. They all feel the same!

    Now I understand they each have a different layout, aesthetic, and engagements, but this is not enough for me personally to feel that a map is great. What really makes the map different? Through a slightly deep look into game development philosophy, we can understand this. This is a principal called "Function over Form".
    Function over Form is a philosophy that companies use to find a way to make a game fun. What kind of movement would be fun? Now I understand in halo we are limited but when people are trying to describe a map they can't just go "The sandy map" because there are hundreds of maps out there like this. If you were to say "The map with the large turning turbine in the middle". I think we all think of Halo 2 or 3's Zanzibar.

    Now in halo, we are limited if you're making a core map to building a map so that it plays well, but gimmicks can make a map far more unique. Like that turbine in Zanzibar or a unique lift. Aesthetics should help your map stand apart from all the other maps out there. But if you can form a map with a unique gimmick it can be 100 times to better. Endless Shore by MrDeliciousman9 Shows its colors through its gimmick as well. Its unique lift system complimented by its unique art style shows off how truly unique this map can be. Or even the more recent map Don't Look Down by LethalChicken is an entirely destructible map, and that is a totally interesting!

    The issue can be simply as, ALOT of maps coming out have no gimmick, and at the end of the day they will fade away into nothing despite being pretty. Gimmicks will help your maps survive so give your map something unique, a sort of flavor to it that makes things spicy.

    Don't get me wrong I love core maps, but Maybe we should give more credit to those who try something a little different and strive to make other core forgers experiment with there maps!.

    Now tell me what you think? should a map have something that makes it unique or is the artistic value truly enough to distinguish it as memorable? Tell me below!
     
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  2. MultiLockOn

    MultiLockOn Promethean
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    my vote will be obvious. If you build around the gimmick it'll work. If it's thrown in, maybe not. Maybe this answer seems a bit too obvious though.
     
  3. FRED lllll

    FRED lllll ONI Agent

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    And in my opinion, one should always build around their maps core gimmick! I mean I know this seemed like a weird post but less and less maps that are core even attempt at a gimmick in their map anymore and it saddens me.
     
  4. Ryouji Gunblade

    Ryouji Gunblade ONI Agent

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    I think my choice of gimmicks have been hit or miss. I've built around scripted teleporters, wall-less atriums, barrier-less BTB, closable doors, warzone-grade launchers, explosion boundaries, and wacky aesthetic pieces. Better to be hated than forgotten I guess.
     
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  5. Spranklz

    Spranklz Mythic
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    I literally have infinite gimmicks stored in this noodle so I'm all for it.
     
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  6. Ascend Hyperion

    Ascend Hyperion Speaker for The Dead
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    If any gimmick isnt pulled off well enough it just becomes a determent to game play. It's perfectly fine to pursue gimmicks but it's even better to pursue ones that actually work.

    In general, people that do random gimmicks tend to get angry when people "dont understand" or "aren't open minded" but take it from someone who's played custom maps a metric ****-ton, I know when a gimmick is working and when it isn't. The players know it too. People often get attached to crazy ideas and then blame others when the idea they drew up entirely in their heads doesn't pan out as imagined.

    TLDR: I like gimmicks that actually work. I do not like when forgers lash out when their gimmicks do not.
     
  7. ExTerrestr1al

    ExTerrestr1al Heroic
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    I always create the gimmick first, run around and test how well it works, and then only if it seems viable, do I build a map around it. It would be really horrible to build something that is centered around a gimmick that, once finally played and fully put through the rigors of testing, doesn't actually work or work as well as intended.

    For this reason, I'll often spend many hours honing some scripted item before trying to build something around it. Most maps in my "My Files" page are "This or that experiment" in the title, not actual maps.
     
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  8. DrDreidelBerg

    DrDreidelBerg ONI Agent

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    My least favorite gimmick in customs is a vent system, it never works and slows down the game, no it wont be like the movies, it will suck ass. It promotes camping but the camping available inside the vents it promotes is unfair so its not fun at all for the infected. If your whole map is a vent system its just as bad.

    There is a nice long list of concepts that just won't ever work in H5 and if they do they wont be all that great anyways. Ive had to rebuild whole games because a concept works flawlessly for one map but somehow sucks on another. Every time I build an infection spin-off the goldfish ask for a vent system but they never understand how bad they are.

    I find that games with gimmicks using a lot of complex scripts usually end up not being that fun due to it being complex, it impresses people but they wont want to play again.

    As for the question if core maps should have gimmicks, I say yes but keep it simple. For a core map a gimmick should be the icing on the cake, not the basis of the entire map.
     
    #8 DrDreidelBerg, Sep 18, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
  9. FRED lllll

    FRED lllll ONI Agent

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    I understand what your saying my dude. I just what want to say not all gimmicks are scripted, a destrucible floor, a wall jump, a parkour element, or even a swinging pendulum can be the gimmick I mean. A gimmick should always be tested and polished but I want to see more people try this with there maps. The amount of maps that are just a bunch of blocks that look nice is ubsurd to me.
     
  10. ExTerrestr1al

    ExTerrestr1al Heroic
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    and scripting should be polished before just being inserted into a map. help can be found if people just ask...

    simple things are usually more complicated than people realize, and then they throw a half-assed scripting scheme onto a gimmick that is underwhelming if not glitchy and broken.

    They key to great scripting is in something called "error trapping", which accounts for and solves any and all problems that could arrise that you may not have originally been aware of.

    The "Flare" i'm working on right now is a good example... it respawns on a 30sec timer currently. That starts ocunting at the moment someone throws it down. But you must also solve for the times when that person never gets a chance to place the flare because they quit or die first. Simply putting the game's "respawn" setting how you think it should be, is not sufficient and leaves other holes.

    That is just to say, that you must be polished with your implementation of every component of an idea, or else it seems incomplete or broken.
     
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  11. MrDeliciousman9

    MrDeliciousman9 ONI Agent

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    I think the biggest issue is that someone makes a cool gimmick or set piece and literally builds a map around it with out building a proper map that supports the gimmick in unique ways.
     
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  12. DrDreidelBerg

    DrDreidelBerg ONI Agent

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    I know, I am just saying that more complex gimmicks that take over the map are usually not fun.
     
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  13. ExTerrestr1al

    ExTerrestr1al Heroic
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    Yeah, you have to do both. But my point was that if you make sure the gimmick at least works first, then you can sort of simultaneously envision what the map around it will be like. If you do both, then it works. If one is lacking, then it is lacking...
     
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  14. FRED lllll

    FRED lllll ONI Agent

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    I understand what you're saying. I have done that idea and the result Ascendance, which is a parkour slayer/strongholds map. I still will keep working with this maps philosophy because its execution was not perfect but it was probably as good as I could get it with my knowledge of forge at the time. The map is gimmicky and hard, and suffers from being almost slippery, or hard to stay on the map because of its reliance on the gimmick, granted I still think this is a fun map! but it is not perfect. I would love to see someone else try this same gimmick in a different light as well.
     
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  15. Ascend Hyperion

    Ascend Hyperion Speaker for The Dead
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    https://www.forgehub.com/maps/olympus.2750/
     
  16. purely fat

    purely fat The Fattest Forger
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    I think it totally depends on whether or not it takes away from what makes said game enjoyable. You can build around a gimmick but it doesn't mean said gimmick improves the experience of the core gameplay. Just because you add another layer doesn't mean you add something positive to your map.

    None of this really matters as long as you satisfy your target audience. Also, if it bothers you more people don't like it that just requires you to reassess your process for implementing the things you want into a design that satisfies the general audience for the game better.
     
  17. FRED lllll

    FRED lllll ONI Agent

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    Not exactly what I meant. This has the same floating island concept but this maps gimmick is that its a bunch of small areas connected via teleporters, not requiring parkour. This map is similar in artistic style but otherwise, it is not the same gimmick at all.
     
  18. FRED lllll

    FRED lllll ONI Agent

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    I understand what you are saying here but I think that having a design principle or gimmick that drives your maps design is an acceptable thing. THIS, in my opinion, is something that should be far more encouraged in core map design than just putting a bunch of blocks together in a way that plays and looks nice and these maps that push the limits of core design for maps should be given far more credit. Even if the map itself is not the best execution of its gimmick, it should still be acknowledged as something positive that helps push map design forward in complexity not back.
     
  19. ACTIVATE HALO

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    I have a few little gimmicks in an upcoming map...;)
     
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  20. purely fat

    purely fat The Fattest Forger
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    I guess my point is, don't get butt hurt if your map is not appreciated by the core audience. I think experiments are good. I have always been the type of guy who cares less about my map being appreciated and have cared more about if I learn something from it. Also, complexity is double edged sword. Also, complexity does not mean better. Having a better understanding of everything you can do is a great thing though. So, I think we agree on it being important to experiment. I just wanted to throw some warnings out for people who want to experiment.
     

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