Map Publishing Public Forum

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by qrrby, Dec 29, 2017.

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  1. qrrby

    qrrby Waggly piece of flesh
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    Hello hub! My name is Dylan, or more commonly known as qwrrrrrrbyipdilvlslfubabbblel.

    I'm here on behalf of the staff as a whole, as well as you members of the community to bring a much heated discussion to the drawing board. The subject in question: what is the most effective set of motions and guidelines for map posting and the reviews that come with them.

    We would like to invite all sides of the debate to express their concerns, solutions, and what they like about the current system.

    We will provide as much information as we can to level the knowledge field in terms of how the current system works, to ensure everyone has the same tools at their disposal when making arguments or supporting claims.

    I'd also like to personally ask @a Chunk to lend us his experience in this matter; throughout the last few months, his vast understanding has made a lot of headway in regards to how smoothly these conversations have been.


    Let us know what you guys think, and let's forge a new path for the site ;)
     
  2. AceOfSpades

    AceOfSpades Talented
    Forge Critic Senior Member

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    Personally, the way it worked in Halo 3 and Reach was much better, where different maps were simply forum posts, and replies to the posts bumped the map back up to the top of the page.
     
  3. NOKYARD

    NOKYARD GrifballHub
    Cartographer Forge Critic Senior Member

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    and, in most cases, so did the authors.

    I don't see anything wrong with how maps are submitted but would like to see more map features, and have a 'map of the day' in the upper right corner of the forum front page instead of my profile info (which i already know so it's wasted space).
     
    #3 NOKYARD, Dec 29, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  4. GrayishPoppy210

    GrayishPoppy210 Spartan I

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    At least 3 screenshots pls...
     
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  5. qrrby

    qrrby Waggly piece of flesh
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    I'd like to see a generalized rubric for map reviews. Not so much a character minimum, but 1/5 star reviews with 1 sentence need to go. These 'good/bad job' reviews would be better off as just comments. Look at movie reviews by film critics for example: if I went to a website or read an entertainment magazine and saw one of the staff just say '1/5 nuff said', I probably wouldn't trust that person based on that alone and would not return there for information on movies.

    In a perfect world, I'd like to see a catch-all rubric, and a specialized one for all of the categories we have one the site (remakes, mini games, pro, casual, etc.)


    More on the map posting system to come :3
     
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  6. a Chunk

    a Chunk Blockout Artist
    Forge Critic Wiki Contributor Senior Member

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    Reviews
    Reviews aren't particularly important to me. They've seemed to me to cause disagreements far more often than they're actually useful. A lot of people have made thorough suggestions for more in-depth reviews, so I would look to those suggestions if this is the route that's taken.

    For me personally, an extensive review process would probably dissuade me from doing reviews. But then again...I don't do reviews anyway, and probably won't regardless of how they're done. I've always preferred posting feedback in a thread rather than giving a review, but honestly I rarely do that for completed maps either because I assume if it's posted it's already complete.

    I'd be okay even with something as simple as a 'Recommened' or 'Not Recommended' option, which would then feed into a 'Most Recommended' map list. I always tend toward simplicity with this stuff because I feel like it's more likely to be utilized if it's simple.


    WIP's & Community Involvement
    Somewhat tying into my comment about not leaving feedback on officially posted maps, I'd strongly prefer a system that encourages forgers to post WIP threads, which will become the primary place to provide people 'feedback' on their maps. The community is strongest when it's interacting cooperatively. There should be a strong drive from the staff to encourage this. A good starting point is to have testing lobbies that focus primarily on WIP's that are posted on the site. All participants in the testing lobbies should be encouraged to leave their feedback in the WIP threads. A focus on WIP's can also be helped a bit by showcasing promising WIP's in Weekly Updates, or some other regularly posted article (maybe a weekly 'WIP Lobby Recap' article showcasing the maps that were played, and some of the feedback that was given, along with links to the map (WIP) threads).

    It may be difficult to get activity happening consistently at first, but I've seen at other sites that once it gets going it becomes mostly a self-sustaining system. If you've received feedback from someone on a project you're working on, you're infinitely more likely to return the favor to them. This is where the magic happens, and the quality of community content makes huge leaps forward. I saw this happen first hand at The Halo Council website, where within about a 1 year time frame the site produced a significant percentage of the maps that made it into matchmaking. It didn't happen by coincidence. It was a product of the enormous amount of collaboration that happened. This is undoubtedly something that can be recreated here at Forgehub.

    Once a map is completed, it should transform into an official map post (or at the very least be linked directly within the official map post. This creates continuity, and allows anyone who views the map thread to see how the map evolved and improved over time. This again encourages forgers to create WIP threads for their maps, and gets them involved in the developmental process and collaborating with other forgers.


    Released Maps
    As far as the official map post format is concerned, I'm not too concerned about what this format actually is. I like the basic formatting used in the current system. On the other hand, I like the forum thread format because it potentially drives more activity/comments/visibility. I know that with the current system, when a map is posted it generates a forum thread which contains all of the comments. The forum that contains these 'Map Threads' is hidden by default, but the individual threads can be seen when accessing maps from the 'New Posts' link. This is what those threads looks like for anyone who's not aware of this:
    https://www.forgehub.com/threads/roshov.157317/

    And this is the actual forum, which I believe is accessible to anyone as long as they know how to get there:
    https://www.forgehub.com/forums/map-discussion.327/
    Those of you that prefer to follow maps based upon comments, you should bookmark that link (also check out the 'Thread Display Options' at the bottom of the page) ;) I think I'm probably the only person who even knows about this (I may have spent slightly too much time on the site, lol.) @Admins, if you turn this off I will hunt you down. :mad:

    What I'd like to see (if it's even possible) is a combination of the two. If the formatting seen in the Maps section were visible in the first post of a forum thread, that would be ideal. You could hypothetically even keep the current Maps section, which can be utilized by people that prefer to view it that way. Then, still have a public 'Maps Forum', which functions like any of the other forums (threads get bumped to the top based upon recent comments). Another possibility I'd be happy with is to keep everything as is, but have an option to view the map list based upon recent comments. To be honest, I couldn't even tell you why maps are listed in the order they are in the Maps Section right now. It's really confusing, and is probably one of the most annoying things for me with the current system.

    So that pretty well encapsulates my vision of the ideal system. It's simple, interactive, and self-sustaining.


    TLDR: If you don't care, don't read it
     
    #6 a Chunk, Jan 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  7. qrrby

    qrrby Waggly piece of flesh
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    Just a friendly update:

    The thread will remain open until the end of the week, and will continue behind the scenes as we discuss viability between admins and our website gurus.

    Make sure you get your voice out there if this is something you want to have a chance at influencing!
     
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  8. CaptainDireWolf

    CaptainDireWolf Forger of the Wild
    Staff Member Forge Critic Senior Member

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    I like all the things A Chunk said. However. Im worried about a system where you bump your map to the top simply due to a new comment. whats to stop trolls from bombing their maps with comments to get it more visibility... especially if its a poorly made map. Thats basically what we see on a monthly basis in the trending section.

    I like personally like the map section how it looks now, though I do agree we need a system that somehow promotes more feedback from others as this is somewhat lacking at present. I see so many people submit maps, get maybe 1 comment, and then it disappears into the forge void. I think a legit, separate WIP section would be beneficial like a chunk mentions.

    I also don't see a reason why we should even have the reviews. They mean very little to me upon seeing a new map in the list. I look at the pic, the name and the creator to see whether or not I want to look at the map, not the review.
     
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  9. purely fat

    purely fat The Fattest Forger
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    mods would stop them of course.
     
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  10. CaptainDireWolf

    CaptainDireWolf Forger of the Wild
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    I'd rather make less work for us in the long run...
     
  11. a Chunk

    a Chunk Blockout Artist
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    Pro Tip: Nobody wants to hear someone complain about doing a job they volunteered to do.

    What's best for the site should always trump what's best for any individual (staff included).
    Not saying you should do it the more difficult way. I'm just saying there better be a better reason against it than not wanting to moderate the forums.
     
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  12. qrrby

    qrrby Waggly piece of flesh
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    I would actually prefer modding it thread style, it would be a lot easier to manage due to the community backlash when their map gets bumped off of the front page because of someone trying to 'boost' their map.
     
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  13. a Chunk

    a Chunk Blockout Artist
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    It's not going to be too complicated either way from a moderation standpoint, as long as the expectations are reasonable and clearly stated. It's pretty much a non-factor.
     
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  14. CaptainDireWolf

    CaptainDireWolf Forger of the Wild
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    No my dear a chunk, You misunderstand. I love being a mod and taking care of the site. Ideally I'd like to set up a system that takes care of itself and make the site more efficient on its own. By Putting in place a system you know the mods will have to fix every week because of trolls, I just think there has to be a better way to counter this intuitively without just relying on mods. If not, then us mods will certainly be there to save the day.
     
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  15. purely fat

    purely fat The Fattest Forger
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    There really isn't. I mean you can give a person a post timeout within a thread but that could also be counter intuitive if there is an actual good discussion going on in the thread. This would lead to even more work for the mods.

    Also, understanding that boosting a map would lead to a person being banned would help in avoiding too large of an issue from occurring. Not account banning but IP banning. A system just like this worked for years without any issues. Change was made more so for the sake of change originally.

    You guys just need to make a statement about how moderation will change starting at a certain time. Which could be when you change the map posting format. It could just be in the map section as well where moderation is stiffer.
     
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  16. WAR

    WAR Cartographer
    The Creator Forge Critic

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    @a Chunk Thanks again for the thorough feedback. I also agree with you on most of this. My original vision for WIP maps was for them to eventually translate into an official map post but the devs were having a really difficult time trying to make that work. Perhaps we can try again, if there's a will there's a way right?

    I was visiting ArtStation the other day and really liked the guidelines prompt before posting. I think we should adopt something similar in the future. Will help out the mods and let users know what content is acceptable beforehand.

    First time posting 2.PNG
     
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  17. qrrby

    qrrby Waggly piece of flesh
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    Thanks everyone for the input!

    We now go to phase 2 of our plan: development!
     
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