I played Halo Wars 2 and Hated it

Discussion in 'Halo and Forge Discussion' started by MetalDeadKid, Jun 25, 2016.

  1. MetalDeadKid

    MetalDeadKid ONI Agent

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    Anyone here play any RTS's other than Halo Wars?
    If not, I want to warn you before-hand that I will not take your opinion seriously.

    Halo Wars 2 (and Halo Wars 1, honestly. They're both practically the same, little to no difference) isn't flawed in my vision because of simple things, like OP units, bad balancing, etc., I dislike it because the core mechanics are flat out illogical. To put it into perspective, the difference between Halo Wars and every other successful RTS is the difference between Halo 3's Forge and Halo 5's. Anyone who has little experience with Halo 5's Forge would claim that it is too complicated and that it has ridiculous controls. Anyone who has experience with Halo 5's Forge would immediately recognize the superiority in Halo 5's and dismiss the argument because he realizes that any reason he presents would be countered by the good 'ol "The only reason Halo Wars isn't like PC RTS's is because of the controls".

    If you want to pose that argument, then check this video out-

    Real gameplay starts at the 20 second mark.

    That gameplay was on the 360

    Here are a few things Halo Wars employs that I generally don't think work-

    - Resources generated by buildings infinitely
    In most RTS's, Resources are gathered from the surrounding area; if you are limited to the resources around you, you will at some point have to expand or else you will run out.

    - Pop count
    What the Hell were they thinking?
    I understand that with infinitely collecting resource generators in your backyard, you need to limit the amount of units one can spawn, but first of all, THERE HAS NOT BEEN A SINGLE RTS THAT EMPLOYS A POP LIMIT THAT HAS BEEN GOOD! The only RTS with a Pop limit that I can think of off the top of my head would be Command and Conquer 4, and that game was so bad that it caused the kill off of the entire C&C franchise, a game series that has existed since the 1990's with a large community. You wouldn't need a Pop Limit if you didn't have infinitely collecting resource generators in your backyard.
    PS, Some may argue that there are many other RTS's with Pop limits, but most of them have a way to increase those limits continuously. Halo wars simply employs a flat limit that can only be increased once.
    PPS, There are a few games that have population limits similar to Halo Wars, but I'd like to point out that those games have much more specialization in their unit sandbox, while Halo War's sandbox is incredibly basic, which brings me to the next point,

    - Halo Wars' Horrid Unit sandbox
    Playing Halo Wars after Playing Command and Conquer is like playing around with Halo 3's Vehicle sandbox and than going to Halo CE's.
    Halo 3 Vehicles-
    -Mongoose
    -Warthog (Gauss, Chaingun, Transport)
    -Scorpian
    -Hornet
    -Ghost
    -Wraith
    -Banshee
    -Chopper
    -Prowler
    Halo CE Vehicles-
    -Warthog
    -Scorpian
    -Ghost
    -Banshee
    Everything becomes watered down. While there is a unit for every Niche, there's nothing unique; everything's generic. Going into details here would be me comparing Halo Wars' units to those in other games, and no one here wants to listen to people compare Halo Wars to games they've probably never played

    Those are just a few things I could think of off the top of my head. Please proceed to debate whether my argument is valid, and provide quality counter arguments. I am open to any points people want to make.
     
    Given To Fly likes this.
  2. lxlIcyBulletlxl

    lxlIcyBulletlxl Legendary
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    I don't play other RTSs, primarily because I don't enjoy them quite enough to put the necessary time in to master them, and I don't like playing for casual fun, I like to win. I put a ton of time into the original Halo Wars because I did enjoy it and enjoyed playing an RTS that featured a familiar Universe that I loved. In other words, if there was suddenly a console RTS for Gears of War, or Zelda, or Game of Thrones, or one of the other pop-culture and video game series I love so much, I'd put the time in to be good at them.

    Anyway, I thought I'd clarify WHY I don't play other RTSs before I continue since apparently the following opinion shouldn't be taken seriously.

    Let's start with condensing to just Halo Wars, as you said they're basically the same game so no need to differentiate between the two while we're speaking here. This is basically a thread saying Halo Wars is not as good or complicated as other RTSs.

    Here, we somewhat agree. Halo Wars, if put in the context of an RTS like, let's say Starcraft, certainly doesn't hold up in terms of complexity and strategy. If the game was meant to be placed side by side with Starcraft, we'd certainly agree that Halo Wars is basically a giant pile of ****.

    But, it's not. Although Halo Wars & Starcraft share the genre RTS, they are not really part of the same niche. I'll give you this as an example, Overwatch and LoL. These are both technically MOBAs (Multiplayer Online Battle Arenas), but you can most surely agree that they are not the same type of game. The formula for the two games is entirely different. We'd put SMITE, LoL, & Dota 2 in one category and Overwatch and TF2 into another category. These are obvious pairings that make far much more sense than just labeling all 5 of them as MOBAs and then judging them off those merits.

    Halo Wars does not have open spaces for building wherever you please. Halo Wars does not have a massive map with dozens of buildings, units, and resources. Halo Wars does not have the micro-manage aspect to the same level as a Starcraft. Halo Wars is, in essence, an arena-style RTS. A game that is meant for you to build your armies and bases as quickly as possible and duke it out in a couple skirmishes before wiping your opponent off the map.

    Saying Halo Wars is not good because it does not emulate the complicity of more traditional RTSs doesn't make a ton of sense. It never tried to be Starcraft on the console with Spartans, it tried to be a fun, short match-based slugfest Halo fans could enjoy. Hell, Halo Wars creators didn't even realize the game was going to be so popular, they were surprised by how many people took to it, because it's good for what it does, which just happens to be something you're clearly not interested in, which is completely fair, obviously you fancy yourself an RTS player, and there's no reason to enjoy an inferior product if you can enjoy a better one.

    As for your Halo 3 Forge to Halo 5 Forge comparison, the problem is that the gap in learning curve isn't wide enough to see how the comparison would really play out. For example, you're sitting here Forging on Halo 5, but why not instead just use a game engine on your computer and create a new game from scratch? It's way more complicated, sure, but you certainly have far more options and the end result will be far better assuming you know what you're doing.

    If Halo 5 Forge required hundreds of hours to be good enough to make a simple map, you'd be sure that people wouldn't be so quick to dismiss an easier counterpart just to have the fun of forging. In reality though, Halo 5 Forge can be used relatively well with like 1 hour of practice. Sure, maybe not scripting and perfect alignments, etc. but well enough to make some simplistic maps. The major point being is that if you like a complicated RTS, go play that, there's no reason a less complicated option for a more casual fan shouldn't be available, especially when that's what made the game so popular the 1st time around.
     
    ES Shotgun Lord and RPAL like this.
  3. RPAL

    RPAL Promethean
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    The original Company of Heroes, in my opinion, is one of the greatest RTS games ever made. You gain resources by capturing sectors and holding them--not by producing the resources yourself. Everyone starts out with the same basic rate and holding different sectors that contain fuel, munitions, or manpower will increase the amount you get per minute. You also need to hold territory in order to keep your population cap large enough to stand a chance.

    Obviously, Halo Wars cannot accomplish this because it is more of an "arena style" RTS as Icy pointed out...

    I completely agree with all of that. I would however say that Halo Wars itself does have a lot of open spaces for building--there is just no real reason for a build/fortify mechanic when you can defend every point of interest in the game with a group of units. In games like Company of Heroes, you can lock down roads with bunkers, tank traps, and barbed wire. You can put demolition charges on buildings or cut off enemy supply lines to limit their resources. Halo Wars has none of that because the game is designed to be the simplest form of an RTS there can be. The intro video even bragged about how it functions like rock-paper-scissors. Overall I think Icy said everything perfectly. Halo Wars isn't trying to be a legit serious RTS, its just supposed to be a fun experience in the Halo universe.

    But for me....I only played one full match in the beta and after that I am not looking forward to Halo Wars 2 being released. I feel like I'll be wasting my money to play the campaign. I have no desire to sit in a multiplayer match of that again.
     
    #3 RPAL, Jun 26, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  4. Soldat Du Christ

    Soldat Du Christ ONI Agent

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    I thought betas/demos don't release all of there content? Is that the issue i'm seeing here?
     
  5. Given To Fly

    Given To Fly MP Level Designer
    343 Industries

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    Basically, HW2 is the most simplistic form of an RTS available.
    No base customization or fortification. No gathering resources either.

    There are infinitely less variables in Halo Wars compared to C&C, let alone any other well known RTS.
    My favorite PC game of all time is C&C Tiberian Sun, which released in 99' I believe and offers more creative freedom and strategy than Halo wars.
     
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  6. SIERRA420

    SIERRA420 Legendary
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    Good insights. For background info I've been playing RTS' since I was 8. AoE2, Warcraft 3, and Starcraft are my specialty. I do agree Halo Wars is a overly simplified RTS and has a hard time compared to a successful formula like Starcraft's.
    In fact, my first experience with RTS was Starcraft. However it was not your typical version. I only played the N64 version. I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. At the time I felt the controls were pretty damn solid, even though I had no background with the PC port.

    This opinion changed when I tried going up against AI in custom scenarios outside of the confines of campaign. You get overrun immediately because the AI is ported directly from the PC version. It isn't restricted by the improvised control scheme you're forced to use. Your apm is severely crippled while they can use the PC keybindings and control groups to their full advantage. With no control groups you can't properly utilize spellcaster units or other units unique abilities. Its almost pointless to have a mixed army because of this.
    Take this scenario for example; if you were Terran and had a group of 8 marines, some medics and a few siege tanks onscreen you can't pop them into siege mode without selecting all units onscreen, then deselecting everything but the tanks. APM is severely cut down on all console RTS'. Its one of their most glaring flaws.

    My opinion on console RTS' is similar to my opinion on the PC port of Guitar Hero 3. It is possible to make the game run but the experience is going to be hampered by the different control interface. Guitar Hero feels uncomfortable and alien using a keyboard. You can get used to it but its not the optimal or intended way to play.

    Console RTS' are generally forced to be simplified to compensate for the lack of apm and ability to micromanage your units. This essentially sets them up for failure or disappointment when compared to a PC exclusive RTS.
     
    #6 SIERRA420, Jun 26, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2016
    Given To Fly likes this.
  7. ES Shotgun Lord

    ES Shotgun Lord New Member

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    Man, I love how I can make a large list of games that had a pop limit and was really great. Something you said you couldn't do.

    Red Alert 3
    Red Alert 2
    C&C 3 Tiberium Wars
    Age of Empires III
    Age of Empires II
    Age of Empires I
    Age of Mythology Extended Edition
    Supreme Commander
    Supreme Commander 2
    Star Craft
    World of Warcraft <the original>
    Sins of Solar Empire Rebellion
    even Halo Wars is considered a great rts.

    This list right here couldn't have been so hard to list. Also, before you dismiss me as "Some player that never played any other rts," ;) I played almost all of these, and, I mastered them, all. I prefer Halo Wars because it's universe mostly and it was never meant to be one of the same as Star Craft, it's meant for fun for Halo fans. A detail, sadly, you ever-so-missed.
     

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