FORGEGATE video Misuses evidence

Discussion in 'Halo and Forge Discussion' started by MartianMallCop, Apr 9, 2016.

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  1. MartianMallCop

    MartianMallCop Spartan I
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    Hey this is Jake and today I have to write up something I never thought I had to do. This is in response of this video: . Now Multi is my friend but I can’t let some of these things slip by when they are not the truth. So Multi tells us he’s going to make a video criticizing the cartographers and the cartographer system. Later on I watch this video and, the first 3 minutes 16 seconds are actually great and he’s being pretty accurate. But after that he made quite a few flaws, and by flaws I mean evidence from an untrustworthy source, some evidence out of context, and some assumptions. It turned from a critique of the cartographers into what looks like a character assassination of the Psycho Duck. The purpose of this article is to correct some of the mistakes and clear up some of the facts over the situation.


    Exhibit A

    -Multi States Duck brought Fated Fire on as a Cartographer


    Fated Fired was a CC before the Psycho Duck even joined the cartographers


    Exhibit B

    -He states the the Psycho Duck features own maps and friends maps on Forgehub.com.


    Duck is not staff on Forgehub.com. He is a member of the video crew which is the franchisee of Forgehub. Two different entities. He physically cannot feature his own content on the site.
    Whether there is an in group bias over featuring on the site is a different story entirely. Also I’d like to bring up that the channel features and the sites features are separate systems entirely.


    Exhibit C

    -Multi States that most of the maps featured by Duck on Forgehub channel in H2A had bad community reviews.


    Only Bad Blood had a largely controversial reception. Lost Causeway, Cairn, Fort Hank, Arcsys, Entrenched, Blockus, and Unearthed had a mainly positive response.

    Exhibit D

    -He states that Bad Blood had awful response by most of the community


    The video had 74 likes and 22 dislikes. You can go to the video right now and read plenty of comments which agree with disagree. I’ll be leaving the sources links below.


    Exhibit E

    -He uses The Epidemic as a source. He states Duck had unfairly treated RLD and Darth Human. He states Duck told people to make proxy accounts. And that Darth was only swindling $30 a month tops.


    The Darth Human’s exploitation of his previous content creators of the Halo Forge Epidemic are very true, and witnesses are PA1NTS, AbleSirThomas, SOLIDSNAKEee, Master Debaytes, obviously the Psycho Duck, Oakley Hidef etc…. Many of which can confirm that Darth was swindling a lot more money from the group.


    All of Darth Humans offences can be shown in this article. http://halocustoms.com/threads/the-end-of-an-era.21623/

    -MultiLockon states the article came out AFTER The Epidemic’s announcement video to diminish their reputation. This is completely false.
    The article was posted on September 15, 2015.
    evidence pics - 1.png

    The Epidemic’s launch video- September 27, 2015.
    evidence pics - 6.png
    evidence pics - 2.png

    The Announcement video had 150 dislikes where people linked Duck’s article on their own fruition. Duck had states that the new channel that Darth would eventually make won't be what it used to be. People made proxy accounts and downvoted on their own fruition

    Darth Human was exploiting all of these content creators. There’s a reason they all created the THFE Productions channel as a backup channel. (Now Oakley Hidef runs it on his own).

    All of this shows that Darth Human is not a valid source.


    Exhibit F

    -Multi Lock On states that previews = features on the Forgehub Youtube Channel


    Map Previews and Map Features are not the same thing.

    A preview is showcasing a work in progress map that we as a group feel has potential or a map shown from an event. It may not reach feature status after the initial preview. (This was even asked of us by the community)
    evidence 7.png

    A feature is where we are recommending a map and praising what it did creatively. Giving recognition for those who put the time and effort into an awesome creation.

    Even then if we do feature our own content, that is our right, it is our channel. Others use their own channels to promote their own content. We can as well. Even then we still refrain from featuring or previewing things of our own unless the group considers them to have enough potential or quality in which we would evaluate others creations.


    Exhibit G

    -He states that maps previewed on the Forgehub Channel were only from Duck’s small clique


    Many of people who are/were not friends of Duck have had previews on the channel. Examples being: Wyvern Zu, Home World Hero, and REMkings who had infection maps that were previewed along with a bunch of maps from the community BTB Testing lobbies who’s authors are Monsieur Crosley, Alex Quit, FD Bad Angel, Xdemption, and a Darkling Ninja. This alone shows that The Forgehub channel doesn’t preview just our own or just our friend’s content


    Exhibit H


    -He states a member of Game Lobby Witnessed Judges Sabotaging a map test of Olympus ( GivenToFly93 and MultiLockOn’s map for the 5v5 squad forge contest)


    I was in the party when that guy told us this, he said that some members of the game had been critisizing the map and he did not say that they threw the game. THEY ARE JUDGES. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. THEY JUDGE. There were some stupid plays I admit, trying to do the middle flag run strategy a few too many times in the two to three games they played with the judges, but this is greatly exaggerated as sabotage. There were other times when they also tried other flag return routes in those games. Not enough evidence to prove sabotage of a test.

    EDIT: It also could be possible that they talked with this witness afterwards. I have realized that this doesn't prove either way if the test was sabotaged. I'd recommend disregarding Exhibit H.


    Exhibit I

    -He states several YouTube channel members wanted to feature the map and Duck is the sole reason that it wasn't featured


    Olympus was a good map, but it didn't place too high in the contest.
    Flying Shoe ILR's (squad contest judge) Reasoning here in response to GivenToFly93 criticizing the contest judging:
    "That you and your team did not enjoy your games on Entrenched is anecdotal evidence. That you didn't enjoy it and had games you didn't like are not things that are wrong with the map, they are personal experiences. I don't personally enjoy games on Sanctuary, that doesn't make it a bad map. As for exploits, I did not know of any myself, though that does not mean they did not exist. If they were out of map issues they would have been fixed, as those are not design flaws but bugs, and we did not judge any of the maps on bugs.

    "Honestly, there was not a more well forged map in the contest pool." - GivenToFly93. The entire judging panel disagreed with you. The central structure and terrain looked nice, and the map played acceptably for One Flag CTF, but the structure was incredibly simplistic to defend and did not reward defense for moving out into the rest of the map. I do not care how well your map would have played for 8 v 8, the contest was not for 8 v 8. It was for 5 v 5, this was established from the beginning. The map was over-scaled for 5 v 5, and vehicle-infantry interaction was weak due to the entire central structure's lack of accessibility to warthog turret fire. The infantry-vehicle space was mostly open fields, and besides the cave/ teleport area did not provide interesting approaches to the base. While the map did improve a lot over the course of the many play tests that we held, It was inferior to many of the other One-Flag CTF maps we tested. Because of that, it was eliminated earlier than those maps. It is as simple as that, you can continue to complain about it or you can learn from it and make a better map. "


    It was put lower on priority list of features because runner ups were being featured first. Able and Myself told Multi that we both discussed featuring the map as a 6v6 to 8v8 map, and it was one of the maps along with Riptide by Squally Dabeanz, and a few others that we had considered featuring but Halo 5 had come out and no one wanted to go back to MCC. We just never got to it.


    Exhibit J


    -Multi states that forgers have not been invited when their own map is being tested in testing lobbies


    The lobbies are first come first serve. (At least for the Monday Map Testing). People can sign up for the lobbies on Halo Customs and testing is in order of who signed up first. However many times some people are 10 - 20 minutes late to the lobby and expect the host to kick whoever had taken up their place because they didn’t make it in time. I see no problem here. No one is being singled out


    Exhibit K


    -Multi Lock On implies that PsychoDuck had told other channels to not feature creative force content. He specifically said that Duck said to not “mention creative force”.


    Context was explained by The Secret Schnitzel

    “When Creative Force was formed, I was still on more or less good terms with Duck, Fated, and Warholic. I still chatted with them on skype on occasion. One major concern we ALL had about the group was the involvement of GodlyPerfection in it. Given his past, it wasn't beyond reason to believe that he would be utilizing this group as a Match Making Map Factory, or at the very least, only look at this group for content to push to 343 for Match Making, rather than the broader community. After the Breakout Task, the only Cartographer I was "friends" with anymore was Duck, and we talked about Creative Force and Godly again briefly. The heart of the conversation was that I was worried War and Fated would be upset with me about my rant on the Breakout Task, but they had interpreted it as an "Anti-GP" post, and were, for lack of a better word, supportive of it. Duck went on to tell me that he planned on warning Pokephile about Godly, as he was worried that featuring CF maps would be akin to giving GP undue credit. This is a sentiment I'm sure beyond a reasonable doubt that War and Fated shared, given their past stances on the subject. Here's the big kicker though: WE WERE WRONG.


    The stance against CF was never to not feature maps by the group, it was to credit the individuals rather than the collective. There was nothing insidious behind the reasoning there. And as we later learned, our belief that Creative Force was a MM Map Factory was wrong, and hence became a non-issue moving forward. There's good reason why no one (save myself a few times) has ranted about CF or GP since then. It became a dead issue where our original stance turned out to be the wrong one. “


    Multi promptly replied “Go **** yourself.”
    evidence pics - 5.png


    By the way, whatever group a forger wants to be identified with when getting a feature, the Forgehub Youtube Channel will include that group name in the feature.


    In conclusion, I just couldn’t let these inaccuracies slide. Don’t take things at face value. Think for yourself. I will leave all sources below. Overall, choose what you believe is the truth. That’s all.


    Links to evidence:


    Secret Schnitzel Quote
    http://www.forgehub.com/threads/forgegate.151590/page-3#post-1636330

    Forgehub previews









    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjTrHzsWJ60

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlrAveavwkg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewh5CKmFrts

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n2In7l_O9c

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEHyGIEH9eg

    End of An Era Article

    http://halocustoms.com/threads/the-end-of-an-era.21623/

    Epidemic Launch video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izjAugvPlkE

    Bad Blood Forgehub Thread

    http://www.forgehub.com/maps/bad-blood.802/

    Bad Blood Youtube Feature

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AryF303I8k

    Link to Contest Judging Reasoning

    http://www.forgehub.com/threads/sug...ion-process-part-1.151456/page-2#post-1634683
     
    #1 MartianMallCop, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
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  2. Xandrith

    Xandrith Spartan II
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    I'm not about to delve any deeper into this stuff, but I will say one thing.

    Let's just say that everything you say here is true (it isn't) but lets just say it is. There is STILL a mountain of evidence in the form of screen caps and personal testimonies to prove that Duck is an extremely self centered individual, and (obviously) a great manipulator.
     
  3. MartianMallCop

    MartianMallCop Spartan I
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    Whatever helps you sleep at night
     
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  4. Orzium

    Orzium Spartan I

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    Perfectly laid out and fully justified with evidence.... Brilliant Martian. Rather sad how butt-hurt people get just because their map didn't get into MM.
     
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  5. Stunt

    Stunt ONI Agent

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    I've started playing in some of Ducks Monday test lobbies after forge was released and I disagree with the vast majority of what Xandrirh/ Multi are saying. Before halo 5 I wasn't very involved with the community, but soon after the release I found myself very accepted by the forge community and am happy to say I find allot of the other content creators I have met as friends. Duck in particular I find very friendly, and I appreciate his honesty when it comes to giving criticism. Sometimes a map just isn't good and the author needs to be told that, but never have I receved criticizm withought advice backing it up ( from Duck ). My impression of Duck is very opposite of what is being implied by Multi, and I find it radicals that someone would slander such an impactful community member. The video feels like more of an attack on Duck than a constructive argument; and that's just plain rude and childish.
     
  6. PharmaGangsta1

    PharmaGangsta1 Dr. Deathpit

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  7. SteelGreen

    SteelGreen StoolGreen

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  8. Given To Fly

    Given To Fly MP Level Designer
    343 Industries

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    I'm not going to talk about Duck personally, but rather refute these specific pieces of "evidence."

    An old friend and forge hub member was the last to join the game. He made it on the opposite team of Multi and myself. Our team was in party chat while the other team was game chat. After completion of the game, we started a new party between the three of us. He began to tell us the chatter among their team, to which I was appalled. You Martian were not in the party when he told us this. (You don't even know his name) He informed us that Duck and Squally were complaining about the map specifically. Two people who he didn't even know. Also, it was clear to everyone on the defending team for multiple test lobbies that they were in fact NOT testing the map, but rather simply trying to break it. There were claims that it was too easy to rush the flag in a straight line off the tower and across the map. EVERY single time, we had stopped them from doing this. They would get the flag off the tower in the middle of the map and we would continuously slaughter them as they attempted to death-juggle the flag home. We successfully stopped them 5/6 different games. Not once was the flag attempted to be captured a different way. Yet every week, the same exact feedback was given. "It's too easy to bring the flag down middle." That was the extent of the OFFICIAL feedback at the time of the contest.

    Duck did not specifically go around telling channels not to feature Olympus. Multi was referring to the official FH channel.
    It was brought to our attention that Warholic, the owner of forge hub told Duck the map should be featured. This request was apparently brushed aside. You (Martian) stated you were going to feature it on the channel but "never got around to it" does nothing but fan flames. I suppose there simply wasn't enough time in the 3-4 months before Halo 5 maps.

    I do not wish to talk about Olympus because no matter what I say, it will only get perceived that I'm "butthurt" despite the facts. I'm okay with losing the contest as Olympus was optimal with higher player count. I'm not okay with the false testing and lack of any real feedback. And I certainly do not appreciate the denial of a feature, or placing last in the contest.

    I'm over it. I'm making better things. Life goes on.

    Finally, I CANNOT express this enough. Map "Features" and "Previews" and "Trailers" are all the exact same thing.

    There is no fundamental difference between these, as a video featuring a forge map. Stating that this map is exceptional, and this map has promise (your words) is meaningless. They are both showcasing one specific map in a spotlight to thousands of subscribers to FH. The mindset of the video crew does not change the meaning of each video. It is about how the community perceives these videos, and 90% of the people I asked thought "previews" were bullspit.

    I suggested that preview videos should feature multiple maps very vaguely. That way the are not held with such high regards. Otherwise to feature their own previews on their own channels. You yourself told me that was a great idea, and not more than a week or two later you "preview" feature your own map Hangout on the official channel as a stand-alone map. The only thing you had to say for yourself was "To be fair I also featured it on my own channel" as if that somehow redeemed your actions.

    Stating that people were asking to see the video crews maps in progress is a weak argument especially when you only have one screenshot merely suggesting it. Show me at least 20 people suggesting the same thing to validate your point which shouldn't be hard considering there are over 7,000 subscribers, right? Then I will leave that argument alone. But since you brought this up, why didn't Olympus get even a "preview" video? If it showed such promise... oh that's right, you just didn't get around to it. Well I'm glad you got around to "preview" feature your own map on both channels. Kudos.

    So far, when someone argues against you all you seem to do is act like a troll as evident in the youtube comments as well as the above comment "whatever helps you sleep at night."
    I get it, you and Duck are friends. Cool. But you should be retaining all of the info in the videos and you ignored the screenshots Multi has. I'm not telling you Duck is a bad guy. I'm telling you to look at things from a neutral standpoint which is clearly something you have trouble doing. I could argue that you are sucking Duck's ass as hard as Multi is kicking it.
     
  9. Zandril

    Zandril Spartan II
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    I was planning on just shitposting memes or gifs for likes but I felt I had to say something regarding the map previews. But Given already voiced my thoughts perfectly so I don't have to type too much down.

    This ^

    Just...this ^
     
  10. Goat

    Goat Rock Paper Scissors Scrap
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  11. N3gat1veZer0

    N3gat1veZer0 ONI Agent
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  12. SOLIDSNAKEee

    SOLIDSNAKEee Spartan I

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    Which has been taken out of context for the most part. During my time at THFE, I can assure you there was many, many discussions leading to a decision that would eventual dissolve the team. However, most of those screenshots have been taken out of context and I can personally vouch for how inaccurate some of those screenshots are. What you're seeing is a select number of images which only inform you of half a story, most of which is out of context and made to villainize a good hearted individual. One perfect example is when duck apparently, out of the blue, told the owner of (then THFE) The Epidemic to "kindly go **** himself." Out of context, one would think, "Jesus this guy is an asshole" which is exactly the point being made by Multi. Let me provide some clarification here, during that time period (when MCC was still a thing) the team was essentially being forced to produce content as the "owner" of the channel was putting pressure on Duck which in turn was to put pressure on us. This continued over the course of several weeks and but lack of motivation lead to a lackluster of features. During this time both PA1NTS and The Psycho Duck continued to pump out map features, at least, to the best of their abilities given MCC's state.

    It's probably worth noting that several months prior, an agreement was made between both Duck and the "owner" of the channel that any additions to the team would be made by Duck seeing as the owner actually contributed nothing to the current team. An agreement was made that Duck would evaluate possible any possible individuals that would be able to contribute to the team. Which there was currently no case for seeing as we had all of those bases covered (Core - Duck, Puzzle - Buddhacrane, Infection - PA1NTS and Mini Games - Master Debaytes and myself).

    It was at this time that Duck, was at 343 Industries when they were filming the BTS of the creation of Forge. During this time, Duck had informed us to get some features out as the "owner" of the channel was putting pressure on him to get map features out. Duck told him (and I'm going to paraphrase here), "Hey, look, I can't exactly tell you whats happening right now but you'll need to trust me." That point was point blankly ignored.

    Now after months of taking crap from the "owner" of the channel, said individual went back on this previous agreement without notifying any other member of the team and decided to bring on a previous commentator in the form of live streaming. I was the first to see this live stream and immediately informed Duck due to the unexpected nature of this live stream, which I'm sure you could understand seeing that none of the then current team was informed of this. Duck, had no idea of course. This eventually lead to the confrontation that you see in the video.

    TLDR;
    Duck had taken crap from the owner of (then THFE) The Epidemic even before I joined up with him. Eventually after years of BS Duck finally had enough and told the person where to go.

    Bonus point 1:
    Furthermore, this is an attack on an individual rather than the problem of how the CC's are meant to approach informing the community about how to submit maps, which is what the title of that video insinuates (which is also misleading might I add). Seeing as the CC's have signed an NDA which prevents them from doing so without the express permission from 343 Industries, their legally prevented from doing so. Now, rather than attacking a good hearted guy for spending years trying to improve the community (I'll likely get accused of fanboying at this point), why don't you all try and be productive and try and figure out a solution to that issue. The CC's are a group, not one single individual has the power to deny maps into the matchmaking rotation. The issue is, how do they go about informing the community without breaking their NDA's.

    Bonus point 2: Also, this is simply breaking down one point. I'd happily go into more detail regarding any events that have supposedly happened during the events that have been mistakenly represented during the time of THFE.

    Best regards,
    Snakeee

    P.S Don't believe a story until you know both sides. Otherwise you're part of the problem rather than the solution.
     
  13. MartianMallCop

    MartianMallCop Spartan I
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    I would like to explain that the point of this thread is not to diminish Multi Lock On's entire argument, as there are a lot of things he brought to light that are very important topics. There does need to be a way for CC's to be removed. 20 Inactive CC's is a serious issue. The secrecy of map tasks does not help anything. It only leads to hostility and possibility for certain maps with potential to never see the light. Multiple view points need to have adequate representation when choosing maps for matchmaking and adding cartographers would not only help with the workload but also for more ideas. This thread is not a defense for certain members of the cartographers or an offense, just as a source for information regarding the subject
     
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  14. MultiLockOn

    MultiLockOn Mythic
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    Tell them how you really feel Martian. So I don't have to type a lot.
     
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  15. NARB GUY

    NARB GUY Spartan III

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    Yo thanks for that dislike Martian lol
     

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  16. Yevah

    Yevah Mythic
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    If I would have known months ago that making that comment would feed fire to this storm I would not have ma-......Ah who am I kidding, I still would have made that comment. #Thisisbetterthanrealitytv
     
  17. MartianMallCop

    MartianMallCop Spartan I
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    No problem man.
     
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  18. Xandrith

    Xandrith Spartan II
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    So you don't think there is anything wrong with Duck's behavior? Holy ****, he's got got a tight grip on you.

    I'll just leave with this.

    "While I have your attention, I want to caution you about supporting creative force. Do what you will, but you should know the following. The group was created by GodlyPerfection for the purpose of manufacturing maps for matchmaking. He is ignoring his duties as a community cartographer entirely and pulling maps exclusively from that group instead. He is simultaneously using the members of the group for his own personal gain. The group does not have the communities best interest in mind and is in place to serve only godly's interests. None of the members of the group are particularly talented either. I'm not suggesting that the group's members aside from godly have malicious intent, but because of godly's underlying motives I recommend that you do not recognize or support the group more than is absolutely necessary."

    If you really think that this is okay, then I'm at a loss.

    On top of all of this, have you not read the community cartographer thread? Dozens of people confess theat they too find Duck to be an absolute douche, and go into detail about their experiences. Are they ALL misinterpreting? You are clearly ignorant or misguided.
     
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  19. Xandrith

    Xandrith Spartan II
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    People make mistakes, but tigers don't change their stripes.
     
  20. Given To Fly

    Given To Fly MP Level Designer
    343 Industries

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    I trust you have a larger write up coming and aren't settling with changing the name of the thread...

    Are you trolling me here Orzium... did you even read my post?
     
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