Community Cartographers

Discussion in 'Halo and Forge Discussion' started by Xandrith, Mar 26, 2016.

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  1. Xandrith

    Xandrith Spartan II
    Forge Critic

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    Salty has inspired me to come out and voice my distaste for the CC's. These are things I have thought since halo 4, and with time they only become more apparent. Lets start with the post by @Psychoduck in response to salty when he brought up concerns that maps not submitted to the 2v2 contest wouldn't be considered for matchmaking, and I quote

    "Obviously the goal is to get the best maps possible, and if that includes pulling some that weren't submitted to the contest, then that's what we'll do. The contest saw a ton of fantastic maps and it's unlikely that there are many others out there that are on the same level as the top maps from the contest, but we're open to seeing them. Perhaps sharing a list of these maps you're referring to would be more constructive than complaining about something which hasn't happened yet."

    How would any of us know that? Forgetting about the fact that duck replied like he was talking to an insubordinate child (a common trend among CC's) would it be so crazy to assume that because you guys didn't tell anyone about the playlist you were focusing on getting maps from the contest exclusively? Of course not. You people act as if we have access to all the same information as you do and because of that we are being ridiculous when we voice our concerns or seem skeptical. This is the reason we want to be filled in! So we don't have to be jackasses! Let us move on.

    I honestly believe that there is only 1 CC with the community in his heart. I gaurantee you can guess who I am referring to, which says enough. Let me explain further anyways.

    Warholic has done an AMAZING job helping out this community. He has started so many good things that have come to fruition. He is constantly in testing lobbies and posting on Forgehub. He is one of the only CC's who doesn't act like an entitled douche, and he is generally very receptive to feedback. Let's contrast this to literally every other CC but Nokyard and Ducain.

    The age of Duck and Fated started in halo 4, and has grown exponentially in douchiness ever since. I'm not going to go into more detail on this subject, but just let me say that every forger I have asked agrees with me outside of the people trying to get "in" with the CC's (i.e. martianmallcop, squally dabeanz etc.) Fated also started in forging in halo 4 and became a cc in halo 4. He didn't make ****, he wasn't a visionary, he simply sucked ducks **** harder than anyone else. These "community" cartographers post about once a month on the biggest forging website, and I NEVER see them in parties outside of their clique. Not only that, but they are generally very standoffish when it comes to feedback (see above qote).

    Maybe I'm naive, but I truly believe that the CC's should be working for the community, not coasting on the wind of status like they have been for the past 4 years. This brings me back to Warholic, the only redeeming factor in this whole shitstorm. I'm sure he is gonna come to defend the other CC's, or maybe just disregard this post in disgust, but I felt that I needed to voice my opinions while there is still someone who thinks critically in power. Anyways, congrats on your secured positions at microsoft. At least we are one step closer to understanding why (some of you) seem to be so complacent towards the community. Maybe you were just looking at the big picture!

    I really shouldn't care this much, but It's hard not to get pissed off when I see this kind of ****. I have already been losing my passion for level design because of the awful game that is halo 5, so I just don't care anymore if you guy think I'm a ****. It's worth having my opinions and observations out there.

    I have one more map I want to finish and test, but then I'm Audi 5000.

    P.S Trump 2016

    P.P.S. Chunk is a generous God.
     
    #1 Xandrith, Mar 26, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  2. FrostPhoenix0

    FrostPhoenix0 Spartan I

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  3. Blaze

    Blaze Sustain Designer
    343 Industries Forge Critic Creative Force

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    I can agree with your points and I want to add...

    I don't want to fuel any fires but I don't think it should go unnoticed either. Duck and Fated specifically have shown time and time again that they cannot act like respectable adults. Belittling respected members of the community, manipulating and stirring up drama any chance that they can get. That is absolutely not how we as the forging community want to be represented or treated.

    My comment may be somewhat harsher than yours but it is in my opinion overly justified.

    That being said, I think that 343 is cracking down a bit and really trying to apply some structure to the way they do things. 343 is also compromising a bit too because the formula for getting maps scene by the matchmaking/journalist team (though not perfect) is much better than it used to be. And I don't know if those specific cartographers have just been busy or they're laying low because they know they're on everyone's radar but the drama has died down over the last month or so.

    I probably have a lot more to say, for now I'm leaving it at that though. I hope they keep up the improvements and I hope the belittling and childish drama stops so we can be one big loving community.
     
  4. Chronmeister

    Chronmeister Blockhead
    Forge Critic Senior Member

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    I'm not really sure why 343 has middle men when it comes to picking out what is going to be in the game. I'm sure they have enough people on their payroll that actually play the game, who are able to make suggestions for matchmaking. This site should be enough for them to get a taste of whats out there even if they don't. Getting something into matchmaking is probably every forgers goal and the CC's should be there to help make that happen if a map is good enough. I used to have a similar outlook, but Psychoduck has actually been one of the most helpful people on this site since then and I think he is doing a pretty good job as CC. On the other hand, I have asked Fated for feedback or at least an opinion on multiple occasions and he just ignores me. He seems to know quite a bit about certain aspects of level design, and having him as a sounding board would be nice, but for some reason, I can envision him sitting there reading my messages, laughing at me. I really don't have any issues with anyone else, but I think this thread is going to do more harm than good.
    What it comes down to is this. Maps that are good enough need a shot. Maps should not be brushed aside because of personal issues with their creator. Any forger with any amount of experience should be eligible. The maps that are being considered should be available for everyone to see and testing lobbies for these maps should be somewhat public. It makes no sense that the CC's arent allowed to talk about things like this.
    In closing, Fated, please decide to step up and help the community because I havent given up on you yet and I think you are capable of redeeming yourself. Sorry if I have offended you, but I think having a title like that and getting a trip to 343, kinda makes you responsible for something.

    PS Xandrith, you aren't going anywhere. :)
     
  5. no god anywhere

    no god anywhere Legendary
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    First i want to make a formal apology to @WARHOLIC. When i said the things i did in WAYWO a few days ago i did not mean to specifically call you an asshole in any way. I should of said this sooner in the thread but i wanted to jump out of that situation quickly as i spoke before thinking. I was really frustrated and we all here know why. I still would stand by the thought of the CC Loop being inconsiderate by holding back information but who am i to know what is sharable and what isnt? Though when the list of breakout maps came out with all the same names on the maps you gotta wonder whos being shady.

    I have not talked to a single CC in party chat and truthfully not many of you. You all have your own cliches and i dont really try to involve myself into your groups unless you guys want to involve me which seems to only be when you want someone to play warzone with... which i dont do.

    Otherwise i know i see Nokyards name in a lot of places and War has been a big help to me even though he seems really busy with the community. I agree with xandrith when it comes to war. I know duck from the forgehub videos and stuff but havent really seen him post enough to make a full fledged opinion. Ducain has a youtube channel or something and fated is kinda like my dad, I dont know that nigga. Jk my dad is the bees knees. (No really i have to believe what youre saying with this because what good map or anything has he done?)

    Oh and xandrith should be a CC because he likes everyones posts.
     
    #5 no god anywhere, Mar 26, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  6. Box Knows

    Box Knows Spartan I

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    Lets all forge one map together <3

    Oh xandrith dont leave mayyyn, we need more SWEATY forgers
     
  7. Dunco

    Dunco Troll Whisperer
    Forge Critic

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  8. purely fat

    purely fat The Fattest Forger
    Forge Critic Senior Member

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    I tried to start a thread called community forge map. I just got trolled.
     
  9. Box Knows

    Box Knows Spartan I

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    Well maybe they thought you were trolling since you have that kind of rep :p Lmao, so I have heard anyway. But I think it would be one hell of a map, we should all give it a go.
     
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  10. Dunco

    Dunco Troll Whisperer
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    It would either be a total mess or a beautiful utopia
     
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  11. Box Knows

    Box Knows Spartan I

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    Either way, one hell of a map
     
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  12. The Fated Fire

    The Fated Fire Spartan III
    Cartographer Forge Critic

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    I can promise that this is not the case whatsoever, @Chronmeister. I have not been ignoring you nor anyone else who may feel the same, but rather have just been extremely busy the past few months with most of my time allocated toward completing my studies and transitioning from university to the real world. I participated in testing lobbies and feedback sessions as an almost full-time experience all throughout Halo 4 and H2:A, but unfortunately have not had time to continue that level of activity in Halo 5: Guardians thus far. Hopefully I will in the future.

    I am well aware that the way I speak and write can sometimes come off as blunt, pretentious, and troll, but those who know me well know that I have always had the community’s best interest at heart. The forge community is comprised of some of the most insanely creative, talented, and passionate people I will ever meet. The amount of AAA-quality multiplayer experiences created by this community over the past several months has been absolutely outstanding, especially within the submissions for the recent 2v2 contest and BTB matchmaking update. I wish we could give more maps the attention they deserve; I wish we could have weekly or bi-weekly community forge playlists that consistently spotlighted amazing forge content. Unfortunately the process of integrating new content into Halo matchmaking is more complicated and lengthy than we would like, but War, Duck, and I have been fighting to create more opportunities to spotlight community forge content for a very long time now.

    All of that said, I would like to issue a formal apology to @MultiLockOn, @Given To Fly, and @Blaze for my interactions with them towards the end of H2:A. I learned a great deal from them during that time in regards to my own design philosophy; they helped me realize that despite the more objective nature of certain parts of the design process, level design as a whole is an art that is extremely subjective. I was wrong and have been working to improve ever since. Multi also heavily abused passive sniping on Torque/Artemis during early playtests of the map, so thanks for showing us how broken that was :)—Duck and I worked a long time to fix that design flaw.
     
  13. aPK

    aPK Greatest Forger Alive
    Forge Critic Senior Member

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    NOKYARD YOU ARE THE EXCEPTION, KEEP DOING YOU. YOU ARE A LEGEND.

    The cycle:

    -People express their legitimate qualms with the CCs and their methods of finding and selecting maps
    -CCs come in and make posts telling everyone how it's a lot different from the outside looking in, say they are grateful for feedback, and will look for better ways to do things
    -People smash the like button on their posts, everything is magically okay
    -About a month or so later, something comes out about the CCs' process
    -Repeat

    I'm not saying it's an easy gig, but it seems like the CCs are generally more content with just keeping the ruckus down when it does arise rather than advocating for any meaningful change to how things are done. Do they do cool stuff for the community sometimes? Of course. Do they do it as nearly as well as they could? In most cases, no.

    It's quite simple what the community wants from the CCs: communication, transparency, and fairness. Instead, we get condescending and limited communication, transparency when it's convenient to them or when someone close to them blows the lid, and massively unequal distribution of matchmaking maps between the CCs and their close friends and every other Forger in the game.

    Every time there's an announcement of a new community playlist or new community maps being added in, I see way too many tweets and posts from Forgers asking where they were supposed to submit their maps or how they didn't even know that 343 and the CCs were looking for those types of maps. Considering the fact that we have CCs that cover the largest Halo communities (r/Halo, YouTube, ForgeHub, etc.), there should be no reason for so many people to have no clue about what is going on.
     
  14. purely fat

    purely fat The Fattest Forger
    Forge Critic Senior Member

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    ****ing crushed it.
     
  15. The Fated Fire

    The Fated Fire Spartan III
    Cartographer Forge Critic

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    As much as it seems that way, we are not content with just keeping the ruckus down when it arises. War, Duck, and I have been strongly advocating for meaningful change since 2014. We've done so through every communication medium possible with 343 Industries. We've been advocating for increased communication, transparency, and fairness among other systemic changes to how the group functions. It is incredibly frustrating and upsetting for both us and the forge community that this multi-year effort has taken so long to materialize into meaningful change.

    I know it's easier to believe otherwise, but we've been pushing to resolve the issues you have mentioned on a consistent basis for years. Many of us have considered walking away from the effort entirely due to how upset we've been with inaction, but hopefully things will change on that front soon.
     
  16. Black Picture

    Black Picture Level Designer
    343 Industries

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    PLEASE READ THE WHOLE POST BEFORE REPLYING TO IT PLEASE :)

    I dislike how you cant read emotions with posts. please understand this post is not with negativity

    @WARHOLIC - Ive been in one big team battle play test and In party chat. Also I've seen his interaction with the community, he is a stand up guy.

    @Psychoduck - Been in a play test with him once and seemed OK. however I've heard plenty enough rumors about him. so my opinion is only formed of other people opinions. I do like his forge hub tutorial, they have been helpful I would like to form my own opinion of him based upon our interaction though.

    @The Fated Fire Fated Fire - Only a few things I've seen from him. Didn't seem professional towards 343 and his map. I've heard other people opinion, don't have any interaction with him I'm so don't know where i really stand with fated with my opinion

    @NOKYARD - I've been in plenty of his lobbies and he has been very professional and helpful. He is a great guy!

    @ducain23 - no interaction with. so i have no opinion

    @GodlyPerfection - He has been very helpful with me and I've seen first hand with interaction with other people of the community and they have been great. this is my opinion and i understand he is my lead on creative force so my opinion can seem one sided.

    one of the motto i live by - Its not what you have done, but its what you are doing also what you are going to do!!!!

    I understand why they did the contest and why they don't talk too much about upcoming match making decisions. I'm sure the flood gates would open with map submission. maps should be picked from whats already map not whats about to be made. These guys are working for free. I'm sure they have a life outside of forgehub/halo. I myself have a hard time with being active on the forums with my busy life (Wife, house, work, prepping race cars for the race season, level design, friends, other hobbies) So i understand having to sort through 200 maps with play tests is going to be very hard.

    the one thing i would like to see happen is just more team work with the CC is all. Like i said i understand this is a hard jobs to handle.

    not trying to be rude and call people out, but if any of these gentlemen don't know about the problem, how will they improve on it? I'm all for forgehub/community to improve and I don't want this site to end like halomods.com which i was a part of back in the day.

    I know I'm pretty new to forge hub and my opinion might not have any weight but this is my opinion.

    -Black picture

    ps grammar **** are welcomed lol
     
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  17. BodeyBode

    BodeyBode Mythic

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    I tried this idea back in halo 3. It too fell flat. I was thinking about trying it again if there's interest.

    Regarding the CCs. I've only interacted with WARHOLIC and Nokyard and they've been super friendly and helpful. I can't comment on any of the other CCs.
     
  18. qrrby

    qrrby Waggly piece of flesh
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    Not saying I'm on part with his level of passion, but I know Max Extra and plenty of new people are raring and ready to help with the new influx of forgers (like myself).
    I'd do this **** for free too, just let me know what I can do.
    I'd love being in charge of 343 to mapmakers communication, or dedicated map reviewer with no questions asked, or whatever man.

    Just know that you CCs have resources like me at your disposal :)
     
  19. a Chunk

    a Chunk Blockout Artist
    Forge Critic Wiki Contributor Senior Member

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    Well this will probably come across as me defending my friends (even though I barely interact with the CC's at all, aside from Warholic for obvious reasons) but so be it. I'll just say that I sometimes know more about what's going on than other people, but often know less, just because I don't really care to know. This is just my observation after watching from long distance for several years, and a slightly shorter distance during recent years.

    I firmly believe that the CC's both individually and collectively have good intentions. The main issue seems to be with the system. Unless the system changes, it matters very little who is in the position as CC. The system itself largely determines how much transparency there is. The primary point of contention has always been transparency, or the lack thereof. The lack of transparency will always turn the community against the CC's, as they will be seen as withholding information.

    The thing is, the CC's often have very little choice in the matter. Sure, they could tell the community what's going on even when they're not supposed to, but to what end? To satisfy community members temporarily, and as a result risk losing their position altogether? The idealist in me says "Yeah, that's exactly what they should do". However, the realist in me recognizes that in the big picture that's a short-sighted approach. The more intelligent approach is one that takes the big picture into account, even if it means shouldering the brunt of criticism from the community. Sometimes you have to be willing to be the 'bad guy' in order to stick around long enough to address the root cause of the issue. In this case, I would propose that the root cause is the fundamental framework of the system. Being willing to be the bad guy in the short term in order to affect change in the long term is literally a necessity anytime you're in a position of leadership, or representing a group of people.

    Regarding personal bias towards particular forgers, I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but the CC's would be pretty stupid if they DIDN'T rely upon people with a proven track record. That certainly doesn't mean they should ignore work from other forgers, but their primary objective is to find the best maps for matchmaking, and it makes complete sense that they would look to people they trust. However, what's being overlooked is the fact that this reliance upon 'trusted forgers' is often exacerbated by tight timelines, which significantly limit the amount of time the CC's have to actually search out and test maps prior to deadlines. If I were given 2 weeks to find and approve maps for matchmaking, I'd obviously start out by looking to 'proven' forgers, because the end goal of locating quality content for matchmaking overrides any desire to satisfy the forging community as a whole (and ultimately it's impossible to satisfy everyone anyway).

    Having said all of that, I empathize, and largely agree with the criticisms that have been repeatedly brought up, and I don't blame anyone for being upset about them. It's just that there's always 2 sides to a story, and it's just in my nature to keep that in mind at all times.
     
  20. Squally DaBeanz

    Forge Critic Senior Member

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    PREACH IT!!! I couldn't have said this better myself. This is exactly what's going on. Everyone gets pissed at the CCs for essentially doing their job. They legally can't tell us what's going on. They have a limited time to find the best content, which means looking at what's often considered the best source for said content. People need to stop being so emotional and realize that the forging community doesn't revolve around them. The CCs have a job to do, and they're doing it.
     
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