Altar

8v8 Capture the Flag
8.8
Featured

Map Description

  1. WyvernZu
    [​IMG]
    "Hope rises through desert skies like a phoenix from the ashes of shattered dreams."

    This is my take on how Sandtrap for Halo 5 would be. I increased the scale on the bunkers but decreased the bunkers distance from one another to make it work better for Halo 5's sandbox. Tunnels, a UNSC bunker, caves, a crashed pelican, back routes and an actual base for Blue team has been added.​

Recent Reviews

  1. Fidace Fidace
    8/5,
    Loses a star purely because of inherent issues with the original map. Great job forging, and I'm super happy that Sandtrap has returned. Like the new bases as a way to prevent spawn pillaging, although I'm not sure they work 100%. (Again, this is a problem with the map just being so massive and open, which, given that's how the original was, I can't really fault the forger for.

    Either way, overall, great job.
  2. Sheeracali Sheeracali
    10/5,
    This map and the original H5 "Classic Sandtrap" are some of the best maps in Halo 5. I'm so glad this got into matchmaking. The forging is fantastic.
  3. While I love the idea of Sandtrap being in Halo 5, the remake just doesn't live up to the excellence of the original. Such forging technique as far as architecture is extremely well done, however, the terrain is fairly lacking, mostly in functionality as visuals are quite limited in this regard. If I had to choose, your classic Sandtrap was much better. This is still good however, but a couple of issues are keeping it from excellence.
  4. CroblySImp CroblySImp
    10/5,
    Great Variety of objects and terrain used to convey a feeling of nostalgia and happiness that takes me back to the days of when i played Sandtrap with my friends a few years ago. Great map overall, Love the weapon placement and i look forward to see more maps re-imagined from you in the future!!

Discussion

  1. KraZTaco

    KraZTaco Spartan I

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    Amazing map. The terrain looks choppy in some places, but that's understandable given the sheer size of this map.
    Game play is phenomenal, surpassing the original in some regards. It's place in matchmaking is well deserved.
     
  2. Black Racher

    Black Racher Mythic
    Senior Member

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    I just don't understand... You made a wonderful remake of Sandtrap, and then... This.. I have no word. The aesthetic is the same as Sandtrap, but the gameplay is really bad in my opinion. There are these hills too big or these path behind the bases... All these things you add just create a lack of fluidity with the vehicles.

    Sandtrap re-imagined for Halo 5, I can't understand. Halo 5 is so faster than Halo 3, but the map is smaller... Halo 5 is faster than Halo 3 so, in that logic, the map should be larger, no ? The terrain is not flat enough. Halo 3's Warthog was really slow, so in this case, add some hill like you did could be a good idea, but in Halo 5, it's not... The Warthog is faster and lighter, a jump can make you fly and when you land, it's with barrel roll, stopping you when you were peacefully driving your Warthog...

    Behind the base, same thing... You could have something flat, but there's a path, large enough to allow a player to drive with a Warthog, but not large enough to go inside without make a hug to the walls.

    I think the map is too close... Really. Sandtrap is really awesome in Halo 5 and I just don't understand why this is not Sandtrap which is in Matchmaking instead of that variant still full of problem for the vehicle (we are in Big Team Battle... Vehicle is the most important)

    If Sandtrap worked so well, it's because of his large open spaces. When you walk all around the map or go through the map leaving a structure to go inside the other one, you are a pray for all the vehicles 'cause the terrain is flat and large, so a walking player, slower than each vehicle, take more time to go through the map and enter into the building. As the terrain is flat, vehicles are divable very well, and that's why they were so powerful in Sandtrap. Go outside without a vehicle or a power weapon like the Spartan Laser or Rocket Launcher is run to death.

    With Altar, we lost that, 'cause there's just the middle which is really opened... All the rest of the map is not opened enough and flat enough, and as Spartans in Halo 5 is faster, it's not dangerous enough to go outside of the structures.
     
  3. WyvernZu

    WyvernZu Forge Critic
    Forge Critic

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    I'm sorry you feel this way but Halo 5 plays completely different compared to the previous Halo games. So Halo 5 is using a lot of hit scanned weapons, because of that your weapon range for most of the guns (especially the BR and magnum) is greatly increased. This makes having too open areas unsustainable and waters down the gameplay.

    I scaled down the map because there's no elephants in halo 5. Having that much dead space wouldn't add to the experience, it'd actually detract from it.

    I added more verticality by adding sand dunes and tunnels into the bases to allow players to utilize the new spartan abilities more.

    If you've tried playing my Classic remake with the core Halo5 gametypes you'd know that it doesn't play well at all. The huge spaces give you little to no cover so you just die all the time because there's no way to go. So no, Sandtrap does not work for Halo 5 at all. That's why I had to do these changes.

    And for the terrain. You need to control your vehicle in the air to not flip over. If you just hold your left stick forward you are going to flip over no matter what map you're playing. The vehicles handle different compared to older Halo games and you can't hold me accountable for that. Could you try to elaborate how adding more vehicle paths makes the Vehicle gameplay less fluid?

    Anyhow, I hope this explains a few things and if you don't enjoy this map there's always going to be my Classic Sandtrap remake you can play in customs.
     
    #4 WyvernZu, Apr 1, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
  4. Black Racher

    Black Racher Mythic
    Senior Member

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    Of course Sandtrap works for Halo 5... The huge spaces without cover ARE the point that makes Sandtrap works for Halo 3 or Halo 5... 'cause this is in this particular point that Sandtrap has been created : When you're not in the central structures, you are a dead Spartan. This is how Sandtrap works. Vehicle in Sandtrap is the the true power weapons, but by creating these high dune, it makes the vehicle gameplay completely not fluent and in my opinion (basing on what I said about the vehicles in Sandtrap) ruins the principal idea of Sandtrap : Great open spaces where a Spartan is completely vulnerable against vehicles.

    Now... the vehicles are useless, because of these closed areas and large dunes. In Halo 3, it worked in the same way that on Halo 5, wide open spaces => death... I don't even understand why you didn't just create variations in the structure, making it more open inside, with cover and mayve several floor, creating a higher structure, allowing people to fight there, and maybe add some rock outside to create cover, but... reduce the space while Halo 5 has always upscale his map (because the gameplay need huge map, large hallway etc... because of the sprint and all new abilities), it's just senseless for me x_X just take Midship/Truth for example, the difference is clear : Truth for Halo 5 is huge. If it was a 1 to 1 scale of Midship, the gameplay would be awful... Now take a map with vehicle faster in Halo 5 than they are in Halo 3, and reduce the scale of the map and the scale of the spaces, the gameplay can't work.

    When I played Sandtrap... I hadn't, never, the feeling that the map didn't work... On the contrary, it worked like in Halo 3... The only thing that make the gameplay more difficult for Spartans is that the Spartan Laser is not powerfull enough, but this... You can't do anything, new updates should change that problem, and make it as powerful as it should be to destroy any vehicle outside and allow Spartans to not be spawnkilled.

    I just don't understand your answer... The only thing I understand is about the verticality, it makes sense, but the rest... I just can't... The soul of Sandtrap is here just by the aesthetic of the map and the middle structure... Everything around it breaks how Sandtrap should be played : As it plays in your absolutly gorgeous remake.

    I hope I not... hurt you... It's not make for that, my critic is based on how Sandtrap has been created and in which way it worked, and on the gameplay of Halo 5 which need open spaces. By creating 1 to 1 scaled map, Spartans are faster in Halo 5 so they can cross the map faster than Halo 3's Spartans, it's already a thing that can help them to not die. Okay, vehicles are faster too, but that's because they are faster that close the map was not a good idea, in my opinion, and because of that, vehicles can't be played as well as they should.
     
  5. Soldat Du Christ

    Soldat Du Christ Spartan I

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    OG Santrap is nothing without Mammoths
     
    Sir Elite Bizmo and WyvernZu like this.
  6. Black Racher

    Black Racher Mythic
    Senior Member

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    Absolutely wrong... Elephants were **** for a simple reason : People, the most of time, just drove their Elephant to the other one, just to capture the flag 3 times in 30 seconds... These games were **** 'cause these use of Elephant were ****.

    There's no need to have Elephant in Sandtrap. The best game I've made on this map were the ones where nobody touch the Elephant...

    Take Viking, there's large open spaces without cover, and if you're here, you have a lot of chance to die, but it works perfectly with Halo 5.
     
    eLantern likes this.
  7. JurassicWeeMan

    JurassicWeeMan Spartan I

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    I'm having more fun on this map than the original sand trap...even the one in Halo 3. Also, as awesome as Wyvern's Sandtrap is, it is perhaps a bit too open with no elephants, and as it has been already mentioned, BRs have awesome range in Halo 5. Therefore, I think it was a good choice to create additional dunes/cover for Altar.
     
  8. Black Racher

    Black Racher Mythic
    Senior Member

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    It would be a good idea to create just cover with rocks as there are rocks in Coagulation or Hemmorage, Valhalla (or trees, but trees in a desert...), 'cause rocks would not affect the gameplay of the vehicles as much as the dunes do.

    In every map BTB maps (Blood Gulch, Caogulation, Hemmorage, Valhalla, Sandtrap, Avalanche/Sidewinder...) there are large open areas and often, these areas are really flat, there's little hills sometimes, but nothing like that. So okay, it's something different, but there, only the Banshee is useful. There's a lot of possibility to create a fluent gameplay for the vehicles AND the Spartans. Here, something's good for Spartans is not good for vehicle, and on a BTB map, that's not a good point.
     
  9. WyvernZu

    WyvernZu Forge Critic
    Forge Critic

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    How many times have you even played the map? Everything on this map was done based on feedback. I kind of feel like you're derailing my map thread lol.
     
  10. JurassicWeeMan

    JurassicWeeMan Spartan I

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    Racher: Messages: 92. Likes received: 17

    Wyvern: Messages: 20. Likes received: 60

    Just saying. You can't (and shouldn't) listen to only one or two people who are asking for a RADICAL change to the map's terrain, when you have so many people that love it how it is. Not everyone is going to like every map the same way, and that is okay and normal. That's why we have map playlists, not single maps.
     
    HeX Reapers likes this.
  11. Black Racher

    Black Racher Mythic
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    Dude, I was active a long time ago, I just came back a few weeks ago, and I never posted a map for Halo 5 yet 'cause I have no time to do some Forge, but I have ideas, I have things to do great things like I did for Halo Reach, I just can't do it.

    I agree... A lot of people love that map, okay, fine, I have no problem with that fact. I just give my opinion and I read yours, and I just feel like people didn't understand the importance of large open and flat areas in BTB to a fluent gameplay for the vehicles, but it's alright. Even Timberland in Halo CE which had areas really small just different ways accross the map, has a better gameplay with the vehicle, and it had that big hills too, but there were placed in logical way.

    I just think it's too bad... That's not against you WyvernZu, you had feedback, that's not a problem, I gave you mine. 343 had internal feedback to build their map, but a lot of people hate some of their maps, so...
     
    JurassicWeeMan likes this.
  12. WyvernZu

    WyvernZu Forge Critic
    Forge Critic

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    Too large, open spaces are not fun with Halo 5s hitscanned BR. I know I sound like a broken record but you can't have as big open spaces because that natural segmentation that happens when a weapon is less effective at a certain range. What happens when the weapons are hitscanned is that the bullets have no travel time. If the enemy is in your crosshair you are going to hit while in halo 3 you had to aim slightly in front of the player depending on what range you are in. This is not my opinion. This is how the game mechanics work. I whish it'd be different but it's not. I did what I had to do to get this thing working well for Halo 5. You could pretty much ask any skilled forger on this site about the BR and too open areas and they'll tell you the same thing. It's a different game. It works different compared to the older games. Please agnolage that and move on.

    I'm not trying to come off as harsh but I feel that you don't understand what I've been trying to say.
     
    JurassicWeeMan likes this.
  13. JurassicWeeMan

    JurassicWeeMan Spartan I

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    The BRs are the number one reason for changes in several maps I have seen. When you have BRs that are this good at longer ranges, the sniper rifle, which is supposed to be a power weapon, can be countered by BRs almost too easily. There needs to be a gap in the power differences in order to be balanced and fun. Halo 5 has a seemingly very, very quick TTK, whereas Halo 3 was so fun because it had a shorter TTK IMO. So, adjustments have to be made, and leaving this issue undressed would be a lot more game-breaking than altered vehicle routes.
     
  14. xFallenDemigod

    xFallenDemigod Spartan I

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    I loved this remake. The first match I played on it was with a full team from my Spartan Company. One of the best BTB CTF matches. I applaud you for the work that went into this, and I have to congratulate you on getting a spot on the multiplayer rotation. So Bravo!
     
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  15. Black Racher

    Black Racher Mythic
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    I understand, but now explain me why Halo 1, Halo 2, Halo Reach and Halo 4 have large open spaces (side winder, blood gulch, relic, containment, Hemmorage, Coagulation, Valhalla remake, etc..) and have not that problem of anticipation with the bullet too for M6D, BR, DMR, Light Rifle...

    Valhalla is still in Halo 5 and nothing has change. I know and understand why these changes have been done, I'm just saying it broke the fluidity of vehicles gameplay and I think it's too bad.

    Also, it's to the player to be careful of the enemy team. Everybody starts with a BR, if spawn kills are possible from another side of the map, then okay, you had covers, but I think the problem is more the spawning points.

    I'm just frustrated to see how impossible it is to drive a Warthog correctly everywhere around the map because of the dune and the path behind the bases.
     
  16. WyvernZu

    WyvernZu Forge Critic
    Forge Critic

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    You're not getting what I'm trying to say. The map thread is getting derailed like crazy. If you have this much you want to say about the map it'd be better off in its own thread or a pm.
     
  17. JurassicWeeMan

    JurassicWeeMan Spartan I

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    I believe the BRs were explained quite well and, honestly, if that still isn't clear...well, idk. Different types of terrain - slope, hills, etc, can make your warthog jump/flip out of control if the hill is too high and a warthog has to go up too steep of an incline (at max speed). I have found using flat terrain pieces at an angle instead of exclusively using hills makes for a much smoother transition when driving across multi-elevational terrain. However, I have not experienced this issue on Altar, so I fail to see how warthogs do not run 'properly' on this map. There's not one right way to do things, you know? It is evident you like the classic, flat terrain type BTB maps. And you mentioned Viking/Valhalla...which isn't really that flat. Go build us one and we will give you our feedback. If you have an idea, the best thing you can do is to jump into forge and make it bear fruit!
     
    WyvernZu likes this.
  18. CroblySImp

    CroblySImp Spartan I

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    I think the best thing be said here is that: The person who created the map is right listen to them. Have your own opinion but do not express it here and dampen the mood of others.
    Amen.
     
  19. Black Racher

    Black Racher Mythic
    Senior Member

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    Damn this is a forum, I talk about the map oh the thread, why should I stop talking ? =') I gave you my opinion, it's a feedback like there's a lot of feedback, and like all feedback, you're free to listen or not, and I understand the problem you mean, I just feel you don't understand what I'm saying x_X

    About build a map, I have no time, and maybe Viking is not that flat 'cause of the center hill, but it as flat as Sandtrap is : little hill, large way with nothing to not disturb a player who drive a vehicle. Even the path where there is the Pelican which is "small" is larger than the road around Altar and is flat. I think if you make something where you can jump or lose the control of the Warthog, the space must be large. If it's not, the terrain must be flat, it's just logic.
     
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