Wierd "event Detection" Lag

Discussion in 'Halo Discussion' started by Jupiter, Nov 5, 2010.

  1. Jupiter
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    Jupiter New Member

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    I've noticed, and unless you are nearly brain dead, everyone else has noticed that there is a delay between certain player interactions.

    In halo 2, I think, a system was established to counter host lag, where between certain actions - usually involving melee or close encounter kills - was a window where the effect of each action was delayed a few milliseconds to make up for the time it took for data to transfer between xboxes. This function allows for, most notably, killing each-other at the same time. In halo 2 - if my memory isn't a lying ass-hole - this function ONLY resulted in the occasional double beat-down, and did not did not noticeably effect any-other aspect of the game.
    Bungie in an update many-moons-ago explained this system and how it would negative, but more-so positivly effect the game. And the halo universe received this system rather well (as far as reception of newly established physically laws of universes go)... And the people of Halo adapted; then ignored; and then forgot. Yet, the function remained.
    This system inevitably and necessarily made its way to halo 3, and knowlege of this system stayed far out of the mind of the people.... And then ODST... And then finally, Halo: Reach.

    Yes! This function is still alive today in halo reach. In fact, its more than alive, the motherfucker is homicidal. It is still forgotten, out of the minds of most. Yet it is negatively affecting the game in a big way. Its not Lag that is making me get killed while also getting a "Bull True". It is not lag that's letting people snipe each other at the same time (an event that should be impossible, as reach works off of Hit scans not projectiles). "Punching each other to death at the same time" is common place. Oh and the "killing a zombie while the they kill you equals a betray thing", That isn't a programming error, that is "the function" doing its job.

    The point; this is one of the MAIN problems with Reach, half of the complains people have voiced - about everything from Armor Lock lag to the Grenade Martyrdom - are directly related to Reaches broken "Lag compensation Function". If there is anything that people should be pushing Bungie to fix it should be this fuction.



    Meh?
     
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    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
  2. RaVNzCRoFT
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    RaVNzCRoFT New Member

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    Uhh, what? How is that ruining the game?

    I haven't played infection enough to experience the kill-a-zombie-as-you're-infected-and-get-a-betrayal thing yet, but I see how that is very frustrating. Bungie will probably make some sort of a patch in the future to fix that. As for other events that happen at the same time, I don't agree with you. First of all, I can't remember double beat-downs ever happening in Halo 2...in fact, I think I specifically remember that they were introduced in Halo 3. And who cares if the current system makes it so that people can both snipe each other at the same time? It might not be realistic, but it is fair. If you both shot at the same time, you both deserve to die. In fact, I think I like the system better this way. If Bungie did not compensate for host lag, it would be incredibly frustrating to constantly lose those trade-off battles due to latency issues. At least now when I'm shooting at an enemy and we both kill each other at the same time, I know that the system is working.

    You need to elaborate on that last paragraph because I don't know what you're talking about (i.e. grenade martyrdom, armor lock lag, etc.)
     
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  3. Jupiter
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    Jupiter New Member

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    I'm not saying to completely remove it. I think the system is really clever, and it should be a feature in all multiplayer shooters. I'm saying in Halo Reach, this function is actually causing certain glitches to happen. Maybe the compensation time is too long....

    Also, It is physically impossible for people to do things at the same time. So the scenario where you pull the trigger at the exact same time does not exist. Though if you introduce the small amount of time it take for data to be distrubuted between xboxes, the time when you pull the trigger gets... a little fuzzy. This is where the "compensation" system comes in. Ideally, you should not even notice the process even happening.. It should be the person who pulled the trigger first wins. (I was just using this as an example for how the Compensation System can effect something. If reach was based on a projectile system, then I think the "kill each-other at the same time" would be possible.. Though Reach isn't projectile.. its hit scan... so...)

    Right now, the system starts getting into the 1/10 of a second range (which is terrible) (Reason for edit: exaggeration) compensation time.. And it is extremely noticeable.

    To elaborate on my last paragraph, I was trying to say that people mistake certain annoyances as being completely separate problems in the game or products of Lag. I used the example of armor lock. People think armor lock is annoying because it is laggy and it is hard to tell when someone is invincible or not.. I would argue that the "lag compensation" function is a cause of this. This would be because, the time that you are invincible and not invincible has to filter through the system which offsets it from the visual cues accompanying Armor Lock. There is also something, that annoys me at least, where people who should be dead are able to throw a grenade. I see this as part of the grenade spam problem. Also arguable a result of the Compensations system.

    Again I don't want it removed, just want its negative effects on the game minimized...

    edit: Upon Researching the topic: Halo 2 has lag compensation to a very minimal degree.. (So yes, I was wrong about the Halo 2 having Lag Compensation Coding to a noticeable extent.. Halo 3 originally got halo 2 lag compensation system. Later Halo 3's lag compensation time was increased (To a degree comparable to host latency) in an update and Bungie made a weekly update concerning this (I'll find that)..

    EDIT 2: Upon further research, I think I understand what is wrong with the system. From my understanding of the Lag compensation System In place in Halo Reach, the time window the system allows for specific things to occur (Almost all types of weapon damage, melee, abilities) is based on an average of latencies between players and the host. ("Ping" I guess?) (The highest possible time you can achieve before it boots you out of the game, is somewhere between 200ms and 300ms... I guess) Before in halo 3, the window allowed between doing certain things was 100ms.. Now I think it can go above this number. Theoretically this system would be good, as it better represents the latency times. But, I think "you meleeing someone, wait 0.2 seconds, then the damage registering" is a little much. (Again I say "I think" and "I guess" because this is what i have drawn from reading about reach and the systems in place. Though please don't discount what I'm say simply because i'm not 100% sure how the technical stuff works.)

    If I'm getting fact wrong please tell me, If you disagree with me tell me that too : )
    If you disagree that a fact is true, because you disagree with with me.. GTFO
     
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  4. pyro
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    pyro The Joker

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    Bullshit. Not because of theory, but because I commonly headshot people in SWAT at the same time they headshot me.

    As for the rest of this, I have noticed it is really detrimental to the game.
     
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  5. sniperbait636
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    sniperbait636 New Member

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    I love to play infection its mostly what I play and I have gotten booted at least 7 times and It is annoying me but I it mostly depends on who you kill if they are an ass and boot you whatever but most times I dont get booted and well I dont care its just a game.
     
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  6. Pegasi
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    Pegasi New Member

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    Yes, this is issue number 1 that any future TU needs to address imo. It's blatant over-compensation, and as for this:

    Just no. If it were 'at the same time' then that would equate to the exact same frame, the point is that there are multiple frames in this 'window' to allow for latency, which is exactly the point the OP is making. The problem is that this window is too large, not just accounting for latency as was the case in H3 (can't speak personally for H2), but allowing someone to get the kill on their opponent after they've died on both players' screens. This is simply illogical, as it enables people to get a kill that they straight up don't deserve. I've gotten kills I didn't deserve like this, and I've suffered deaths I didn't deserve because of this. Sure you can argue that the law of averages should even it out meaning you don't suffer from it any more than you benefit from it, but it's still bullshit.

    It basically equates to people getting a decent proportion of a second after they've died to fire and make the kill for a trade, which means a clutch out-DMR is just worth less than it should be. The Bulltrue example is a great demonstration of what's wrong, since getting one without also getting pummelled is pretty rare in my experience. I agree with the OP that there should be a reasonably generous trade in melee vs. melee battles, though still not as generous as it currently is, but where projectiles are involved (hitscan projectiles no less), the window for trades should be incredibly tight. The current system is frustrating and senseless, though I think it's pretty much a given that Bungie will address this when the TU eventually rolls around.
     
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  7. FlamingArmadillo
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    FlamingArmadillo New Member

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    I noticed this a while ago, its a good idea, but Bungie put the window just too wide for this. I hate killing someone, and getting killed when their shot was about .5-.8 seconds after mine (which is a long time if you think about it) Its just happening far to often in Reach. What I would really love for them to do is to shorten the bullet window a lot, and the melee window a little, since there should be a little more leeway in simultaneous melee's IMO
     
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  8. IH8YourGamerTag
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    IH8YourGamerTag New Member

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    I don't want to know this. Knowing how the game works make its not fun anymore.

    I like the mutual beat downs and snipes. I find them humorous :) 
     
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  9. FlamingArmadillo
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    FlamingArmadillo New Member

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    They are funny at times, but they made the window too big as it happens far to often.
     
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  10. Organite
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    Organite Journalist Senior Member

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    Getting booted for getting a Bulltrue in Infection is not humorous in my book.
     
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  11. FlamingArmadillo
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    FlamingArmadillo New Member

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    Or just being killed in a bulltrue, which is counter-intuitive to the medal.
     
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