Effective Spawn Placement

Discussion in 'Forge Discussion' started by TrueDarkFusion, Dec 1, 2007.

Watchers:
This thread is being watched by 3 users.
  1. TrueDarkFusion
    Offline

    TrueDarkFusion New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2007
    Messages:
    2,053
    Forging 101: Effective Spawn Placement


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE79uRVwOro"]YouTube- ForgeHub Video Tutorial #6: Effective Spawn Placement[/ame]


    Spawn placement is one of the most important tasks for a map maker. Some map makers consider spawn placement to be what either makes or breaks a map. In order to effectively place spawns you need to first know the purpose of each type of spawn. There are three different types of spawn points: starting point, spawn point, and area spawn.

    One of the most important spawn type is the starting point. Effective starting points determine the original success of a map. Where ever you place a starting point determines where players will spawn when the game starts. So technically you can place starting points in different places from the regular spawns. A good suggestion is to place at least 16 starting spawns on each map. Also be sure to press "x" on each spawn and determine if they should be neutral, attackers, defenders, etc. The second type of spawn point is the default spawn point. This is the area where players respawn when they die. You can also choose which players respawn at the spawn points by pressing "x" and determining which team should respawn there. You can also place normal spawn points in an enclosed area with the starting points outside so when players die they go to a "jail." The final type of spawn point is the area spawn. Area spawns are used to set spawn priority, which determines where it is most important for players to spawn. When editing an area spawn you get set the priority value to a numerical value which sets the priority of where players on each team spawn. Also there are special area spawns in the options for objective games such as CTF that determine where players spawn when an event occurs such as the flag being stolen.

    The next important detail to cover when considering spawns is it's attribute, which determines which players will respawn at that point. The options for the respawn type include neutral, attackers, defenders, team 3, team 4, etc. At a neutral spawn any player can respawn which means that these spawns would normally be located towards the center of a map. You also have the option to set the spawn point to attackers or defenders. In an objective based game the attackers would be the team going for the objective while the defenders are the team who must defend it. Also in a slayer game red is normally set up as the defenders while blue is setup as the attackers. If you wish for the game to have additional teams be sure to include spawns that are also set to team 3, team 4, team 5, etc.
     
    #1
  2. jake2k3
    Offline

    jake2k3 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    73
    What does the "Spawn Order" option does when placing respawn areas, specifically? I've played with it a little, but not enough to really figure them out and what I can use them for. Will a respawn area with a spawn order of 1 be more preffered than one with a spawn order of 2? Can you use the difference in number of two spawn areas to make one very preffered (ie, having one set to 2 and the other to 8 )? I really don't understand much about Spawn Areas, and would like it if you went more in-depth on them than a few sentances.

    Thanks for all your hard work,
    ~Jakester1024
     
    #2
  3. Zmann966
    Offline

    Zmann966 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2007
    Messages:
    4
    In a Juggernaut match is there a way to limit where the juggernaut spawns (at the beginning of the game, seeing as if you die you're no longer the 'naut,) and where the other players spawn?

    Basically so the 'naut can spawn in say an enclosed room, where there's a cache of weapons, then take a teleporter out, and no one spawns in the room for the rest of the game?

    Of course if it's possible, how?

    Hehe thanx in advance.

    Z-
     
    #3
  4. AZN FTW
    Offline

    AZN FTW New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    930
    Technically there is not... sadly enough Juggernaut does not have specific starting spawns for just the juggernaut... this is why it is barely used as a gametype for forging...

    However if you would like to get creative, then here's one way to control spawns in juggernaut:

    -Your juggernaut gametype must pass on juggernaut by the juggernaut killing someone (such as in a tag gametype)
    -Everyone must be on a team against the juggernaut
    -Friendly Fire must be off
    -No ways to commit suicide (fusion coils, grenades, jumping off, etc)
    -Place respawn points in a juggernaut specific room

    So yeah this is alot of restrictions, but becuz of the way the gametype is built you have to resort to stuff like this. However this gametype works well in a Predator style game, where the Predator would spawn in a room with a selection of weapons... takes what he needs/can carry and then can't comeback after he leaves.

    Note: this means that if you pass on juggernaut you get to be an uber-surviver with cool weapons...
     
    #4
  5. Zmann966
    Offline

    Zmann966 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2007
    Messages:
    4
    Alright thanks a lot for the reply. ;) 
     
    #5
  6. AZN FTW
    Offline

    AZN FTW New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    930
    Actually your wrong about spawn order... that's what I thought at first, but it is not true. For respawn areas it refers to priority spawns... 0 is highest priority, if it is threatened by enemies then it will spawn you in spawn points sitting inside the next highest priority respawn area or, if that doesn't exist, then it will spawn you in other neutral spawns outside of the teams respawn area.

    And you are very right about spawn direction facing. Also point spawns toward the focus point you want them to be going towards... examples: towers, weapons, exits, teleporters, vehicles, cover, etc...

    That is a very good point that most people don't get... the fact that you should set spawns out of a focal point and outside of the teams respawn area to have a good alternative for spawning instead of spawning at say the other teams base, cuz those are the only ones available.

    And for zmann, no problem... I'm here to help everyone, and teach... if you notice most of my posts they are corrective or helpful. If anybody wants particular help, I am usually available. But I have many responsibilities, so please don't get angry at me for saying no... though I will do it politely...
     
    #6
  7. Gravedigger5454
    Offline

    Gravedigger5454 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2007
    Messages:
    938
    Actually, 0 if for random, and all other numbers are for priority. A "0" could be randomly selected, a "1" is top priority and anything greater then a one is lower priority. If every spawn is "0," spawning is random, and it just trys to pick the best place for you to spawn at that time (as far away from enemies and as close to teammates as possible).
     
    #7
  8. Lance001
    Offline

    Lance001 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2007
    Messages:
    634
    The way a person faces when they spawn really is the second biggest thing (the first being the actual location of the spawn). Psychologically, it initiates that player in a direction or motive. Imagine spawning facing the water on Last Resort, and the confusion that would ensue as every player rushed the water, looking for something they thought was pivotal.

    Also, I really, really agree with having a ton of spawns. Nothing ruins a game quicker than spawn-camping. When one team starts to lose, the only reason that they don't quit is because they believe that they can come back. However, if their average life span becomes a blink of an eye (followed by the four beeps of impending death...), then a comeback has gone from possible to hopeless. This is one of the few cases where it's better to have too many than too few (unlike weapons).
     
    #8
  9. AZN FTW
    Offline

    AZN FTW New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    930
    Lance has got the idea and this guy doesn't even forge... You GO GIRL!!! LOL...

    Anyways... yes spawn placement is the most important... don't put a spawn directly behind cover... place them about 3 seconds away so the player has time to recognize where they are and that they are going behind cover. It works beautifully if done corretly... Thank you for mentioning that Lance...
     
    #9
  10. Gravedigger5454
    Offline

    Gravedigger5454 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2007
    Messages:
    938
    He said the way it's facing and having enough is the most important. I'd have to agree, it doesn't matter as much whether or not you start behind or near the cover, it's whether or not you can survive long enough to see where your going and go there.
     
    #10
  11. Lance001
    Offline

    Lance001 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2007
    Messages:
    634
    I agree gravedigger, but I also see what AZN's saying. The spawn is the single most dangerous time for any player: they are disoriented, have nothing to go by (because their knowledge of the level, players, weapons, etc., was just temporarily erased), and are generally slower to react. It's like taking someone, blindfolding them, driving them around town, and then suddenly taking off the blindfold somewhere random. They'll be able to walk, yes, and they can even think, but first they must adjust to their surroundings. Which brings up the question: have you ever tried to adjust to your surroundings while sniper rounds fly through your skull? I doubt it. :D 

    Give people a change, and, guaranteed, both teams will have more fun. One team because they will actually get a chance to live, the other because they'll actually have some competition. Contrary to belief, always owning the opposing team does get boring. A little action here and there never hurt the winner...
     
    #11
  12. AZN FTW
    Offline

    AZN FTW New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    930
    Your wrong grave...

    First off... number of spawns is not as important as you think. I normally only have 16-30 spawns on a map. The number depends on good locations for spawns. You can place someone out of sniper fire, while still not placing them directly behind cover and still fixing the whole dazed effect. Proper spawn placement is everything. Most people need to put lots of spawns because they clump spawns together... that is not what you want, regardless of whether or not you are playing with a team. Keep the spawn points seperated even if they are on a team, mainly cuz that allows you to see most of your teammates, figure out where you are, and make decisions accordingly.

    Grave... you seem to forget, that you were impeached for aesthetics and effective spawn placement... you still have alot to learn. Don't sit back and act like you know everything. I learn new things everyday and new tricks. I try to take my time to spread my knowledge to better the community (if it doesn't show in the forums, then please tell me, cuz then I'll try harder). I want to see everyone get better and make better maps, because everyone has their own unique ideas and you can't always just rely on someone else to complete make your idea. Don't just rely on people doing things for you... understand what they are doing so you can try it yourself next time. I noticed that you think too highly of yourself and are hard to take advice when people are saying you are wrong. Open your mind and trust them. And the same goes true in the opposite direction. If you are doing something for someone, tell them what you are doing and why. Then you won't have to take the time to do it yourself next time... and maybe they can come up with some cool tricks to teach you.

    And Lance you are able to put it into words like I couldn't explain to gravedigger... that was a big problem in his maps was disorientation on spawn. I tried to teach him, but I don't know if he learned from it or not. And very good analogy. I can now use that disorientation explanation when I am helping someone.
     
    #12
  13. Lance001
    Offline

    Lance001 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2007
    Messages:
    634
    Hah, what can I say, I'm an English nerd, I'm supposed to say things well. ;) 

    I see what you're saying on spawns, though. Basically, it's not about quantity but quality, eh? I get you. You could have forty spawns, but if all of them are out in wide open space, it's still not going to help you against a sniper. Point taken. =)
     
    #13
  14. AZN FTW
    Offline

    AZN FTW New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    930
    My point exactly...
     
    #14
  15. Gravedigger5454
    Offline

    Gravedigger5454 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2007
    Messages:
    938
    Were they're facing still would have to be the biggest thing, it doesn't matter if I start by cover if I don't now it's there.
     
    #15
  16. AZN FTW
    Offline

    AZN FTW New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    930
    Alright gravedigger which would be easiest to find your way around...

    The map is on the beach of last resort. You put a spawn point on the beach side of the sea wall, but facing the wall. And then you put a spawn point at the base and face towards the focal point. If I were a normal person I would pick the one facing the wrong way, but nearest to the focal point.
     
    #16
  17. PlayPong
    Offline

    PlayPong New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Ok I have a question about spawning...

    When setting up Starting Points in for a small (mainly used for Slayer and Team Slayer) map, I place the starting points for Attackers and then for Defenders. But my question then, is for a FFA game of slayer on the same map, would players spawn at Respawn Points (as they're set to nuetral) or do I have to place Nuetral Starting Points around the map as well? And with that being said, will that cause some Defenders to start on Nuetral Starting Points if H3 decides it's a better spot to start?

    I went into forge, Slayer, and created 4 Starting Points. 1 Attacker, 1 Defender, and 2 Nuetral.

    I then saved it, turned another controller on, and started that map up in a custom game on Team Slayer.

    The red player spawns at the Attacker Starting Point, and the blue player started at a Nuetral Starting Point.

    I tried it again, and then the blue player started not on any of the starting points (instead, in a spot that is a default starting point for foundry, but I had removed it before i saved the map).

    Any Ideas on what I have said?
     
    #17
  18. AZN FTW
    Offline

    AZN FTW New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    930
    I haven't really made a map for both Team and FFA slayer, but I think I know the way to find out. Go to a regular Bungie map and change the gametype to Slayer. If I am correct there is 2 starting spawn points and two respawn areas... one of each for attackers and defenders. The respawn area encompases MANY neutral regular respawn points, including the corresponding starting spawn. The encompassed points are all possible places for that particular team to Start/Priority Spawn in... the reason for this is that Bungie set up their spawn system so that when one of your members is at a spawn point, the rest of the team spawns nearest to that spawn point (basically gives the nearest spawn points priority), forcing teams to spawn together at the beginning of matches. As for FFA, the spawn system picks a random spawn point around the map... most likely (but not for sure) disregarding respawn areas set for teams as well as starting spawn points set for teams. But don't take my word on it.

    I believe this is how it works, but I rarely design for both Team and FFA (which I should probably do for my next map). Get back to me about this topic... I too am curious...
     
    #18
  19. PlayPong
    Offline

    PlayPong New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Ok so this is what I'll be testing:

    Attacker/Defender Starting Points and can you start there in a FFA match
    a) and are Nuetral Starting Points used for that instead?

    Respawn Areas and how do they affect spawning in FFA games

    I'll post back when I figure it out...
     
    #19
  20. cardo
    Offline

    cardo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    33
    AZN, I have a question. Is it okay to make a spawn area larger than the actual area that the spawns are located.

    Let me explain...

    Say you have 2 spawns in a room, could you set the spawn area to be twice the size of the particular room you have the spawns in so if the spawn area (say, 1 room over) were in fact occupied by enemies, you would spawn in at a different area?

    I'm asking this because my Foundry map has non-playable areas and I want to know if a person can spawn ANYWHERE inside the spawn area, as opposed to just the two spawn points placed in that area.

    It's tough for me to explain but I hope you understand what I am asking....

    Thanks!

    Chill Out <----click here
     
    #20

Share This Page